The Ongoing Attendance Problem

[Huber.]

We just passed 20,000 and less than 600 away out of last place. This one is for you Sherman Hemsley:

[video=youtube;MYcqToQzzGY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYcqToQzzGY[/video]

 

[Huber.]

We are now 3rd to last!

 

[Nom]

We are now 3rd to last!

I was at the game Saturday - if having 1/2 the crowd screaming 'Let's Go Red Sox!' is how we get out of the attendance basement, I don't know that it is a win for us.

 

[cavfanintexas]

Being a small market team is hard to sell to a casual fan, which makes up most of your attendance. They don't understand the rational for trading star players they can't afford, they just look at it as a stupid move regardless and use it as another reason not to support/go out to games.

The Dolans can't improve their public imagine unless they spend, retain stars, etc. and that doesn't seem likely.

It is not the trading of star player but that the return is bad, the main thing I blame the Dolans for the the FO the hired/keep.

 

[Nom]

It is not the trading of star player but that the return is bad, the main thing I blame the Dolans for the the FO the hired/keep.

I've asked this before - but when was the right time to fire them? They deserved another shot after that 2007 team made it as far as they did. This was their 'shot'. If this FO is kept for another 2-3 years, then I start getting angry at the ownership for keeping them around too long.

As for the trades - I'll still contend that EVERYONE thought that CC trade was a good deal. Sometimes prospects bust, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find many people saying bad things about LaPorta/Brantley when that deal was made.

The Lee deal was a disaster.

 

[AZ_]

I've asked this before - but when was the right time to fire them? They deserved another shot after that 2007 team made it as far as they did. This was their 'shot'. If this FO is kept for another 2-3 years, then I start getting angry at the ownership for keeping them around too long.

As for the trades - I'll still contend that EVERYONE thought that CC trade was a good deal. Sometimes prospects bust, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find many people saying bad things about LaPorta/Brantley when that deal was made.

The Lee deal was a disaster.

This is Cleveland, when has anyone cared about the right time to fire anyone?

 

[The Oi]

This is sports, when has anyone cared about the right time to fire anyone?

Corrected.

 

[kidduck]

I was at the game Saturday - if having 1/2 the crowd screaming 'Let's Go Red Sox!' is how we get out of the attendance basement, I don't know that it is a win for us.

Dolan would have a bobblehead promotion for another teams' player if he believed it would put enough additional fans in the Prog.

How are fans supposed to get excited about going out to games when the lineup features Duncan, Hannahan, Kotchman and others who are backups on their best days.

Then you can add in the fact that there is no one in the minors they could bring up to create any interest among the fans. Old Mother Hubbard had more choices.

 

[The Oi]

This franchise is in BIG trouble right now and the fans have been smart enough to see it coming for a few years now. It's one thing to be able to get fans engaged by young talent knowing that there's more coming up. But when you have mediocre to bad talent, you're in a small market (no major FA's) AND the cupboard is bare in the minors...you're facing years and years of sucking. With the situation the Tribe is in right now, with zero impact players in the line-up and decent to bad pitching...you HAVE to hit on a ton of draft picks. Not only do you need to get quality players, you need to find one or two star quality guys. Not to mention that...but if you don't have elite players to trade (and they most certainly don't), you're a whole lot less likely to pick off elite prospects from the big market teams you trade guys to. So if you're trading Choo and Cabrera quality guys, your chances go down significantly of finding a Carlos Santana quality prospect (I think he'll be fine) for a Casey Blake (or slightly better) quality player.

The biggest problem- that's within their control- is years upon years of awful drafting. The Ubaldo trade looks bad right now. Clearly the CC and Cliff Lee returns were poor. But drafting is the one part a small market team can really control, and the Indians are among the worst at it.

It's the main reason why people shouldn't accept the small market/shitty attendance excuse any more. The team just can't evaluate prospects. The team has done a piss poor job evaluating talent drafted into their own organization and almost as badly within other organizations as well.

If the Reds can identify Votto (and to a lesser extent) Stubbs and Bruce...the Pirates can identify McCutchen and (if he cuts out the K's) Alvarez...the Brewers can identify Prince and Braun...

Then there's no excuse why the Indians can't find a star or two as well. Hell...going back a couple years, Grady, Choo, Asdrubal and Hafner weren't even drafted by the Indians.

There's no good reason to support a team that's dug themselves into a hole in that fashion and I remain happy that people aren't. It's the only way you can punish poor decision-making in the front office.

 

[Nom]

This franchise is in BIG trouble right now and the fans have been smart enough to see it coming for a few years now. It's one thing to be able to get fans engaged by young talent knowing that there's more coming up. But when you have mediocre to bad talent, you're in a small market (no major FA's) AND the cupboard is bare in the minors...you're facing years and years of sucking. With the situation the Tribe is in right now, with zero impact players in the line-up and decent to bad pitching...you HAVE to hit on a ton of draft picks. Not only do you need to get quality players, you need to find one or two star quality guys. Not to mention that...but if you don't have elite players to trade (and they most certainly don't), you're a whole lot less likely to pick off elite prospects from the big market teams you trade guys to. So if you're trading Choo and Cabrera quality guys, your chances go down significantly of finding a Carlos Santana quality prospect (I think he'll be fine) for a Casey Blake (or slightly better) quality player.

The biggest problem- that's within their control- is years upon years of awful drafting. The Ubaldo trade looks bad right now. Clearly the CC and Cliff Lee returns were poor. But drafting is the one part a small market team can really control, and the Indians are among the worst at it.

It's the main reason why people shouldn't accept the small market/shitty attendance excuse any more. The team just can't evaluate prospects. The team has done a piss poor job evaluating talent drafted into their own organization and almost as badly within other organizations as well.

If the Reds can identify Votto (and to a lesser extent) Stubbs and Bruce...the Pirates can identify McCutchen and (if he cuts out the K's) Alvarez...the Brewers can identify Prince and Braun...

Then there's no excuse why the Indians can't find a star or two as well. Hell...going back a couple years, Grady, Choo, Asdrubal and Hafner weren't even drafted by the Indians.

There's no good reason to support a team that's dug themselves into a hole in that fashion and I remain happy that people aren't. It's the only way you can punish poor decision-making in the front office.

Lot of good points here - just thought I would point out the draft WAS redone starting in 2008 in terms of who was doing the drafting. Since then Kipnis and Pestano are the immediate returns - with Chisenhall and some of the relievers looking good. Obviously Lindor looks good in the minors and Pomz/White netted us Ubaldo (who sucks - but still took a ton of firepower to acquire - which means they had value to other clubs).

And again - if we want to hang our hats on, 'I'll only cheer for my favorite team when they're winning - and even then only if they've done if for a few years and have star players' then we better take a look in the mirror before we make fun of teams like the Heat and their attendance.

 

[The Oi]

Lot of good points here - just thought I would point out the draft WAS redone starting in 2008 in terms of who was doing the drafting. Since then Kipnis and Pestano are the immediate returns - with Chisenhall and some of the relievers looking good. Obviously Lindor looks good in the minors and Pomz/White netted us Ubaldo (who sucks - but still took a ton of firepower to acquire - which means they had value to other clubs).

And again - if we want to hang our hats on, 'I'll only cheer for my favorite team when they're winning - and even then only if they've done if for a few years and have star players' then we better take a look in the mirror before we make fun of teams like the Heat and their attendance.

On the drafting...it will take time to see what the returns are. Maybe Kipnis will turn it around and not fall into the Asdrubal and Choo category of good but not good enough to carry an offense. If he doesn't...then you've got a bunch of relievers to bail out average starters...who rarely have a lead because the offense can't score runs. It's going to be a couple years before we can fully evaluate the drafts since 2008, but so far...I'm not impressed at all. And that's just the problem...it generally takes 2-3 years since a guy is drafted until he hits the majors. And even then, it's another 2-3 years before you know what you have in him. It's a bad situation. I personally think you're in the middle of a 5-7 year slump for the Indians- maybe more if the drafting continues to suck.

As for the Heat...I don't really make fun of the Heat fans because it's pointless. I never really make fun of fan bases that don't pay attention to sports, because in a way I respect it. I get why they don't attend games in MIA...too many other things to do. Once the playoffs roll around, they're good...but otherwise you've got beaches, night life, and a variety of other shit to do. Sports aren't that big of a priority. I rip on the Indians because they're located in a town that has NOTHING else to do and if the town does have good sports teams...they'll come out for them. They're a mediocre franchise that has made just enough failed trades to be in a situation where they are now COMPLETELY reliant on their drafts. It's going to be a bad cycle for them.

 

[AZ_]

On the drafting...it will take time to see what the returns are. Maybe Kipnis will turn it around and not fall into the Asdrubal and Choo category of good but not good enough to carry an offense. If he doesn't...then you've got a bunch of relievers to bail out average starters...who rarely have a lead because the offense can't score runs. It's going to be a couple years before we can fully evaluate the drafts since 2008, but so far...I'm not impressed at all. And that's just the problem...it generally takes 2-3 years since a guy is drafted until he hits the majors. And even then, it's another 2-3 years before you know what you have in him. It's a bad situation. I personally think you're in the middle of a 5-7 year slump for the Indians- maybe more if the drafting continues to suck.

As for the Heat...I don't really make fun of the Heat fans because it's pointless. I never really make fun of fan bases that don't pay attention to sports, because in a way I respect it. I get why they don't attend games in MIA...too many other things to do. Once the playoffs roll around, they're good...but otherwise you've got beaches, night life, and a variety of other shit to do. Sports aren't that big of a priority. I rip on the Indians because they're located in a town that has NOTHING else to do and if the town does have good sports teams...they'll come out for them. They're a mediocre franchise that has made just enough failed trades to be in a situation where they are now COMPLETELY reliant on their drafts. It's going to be a bad cycle for them.

It's amazing to me that you never grow tired of this debate.

 

[The Oi]

It's amazing to me that you never grow tired of this debate.

There's no debate when I'm right.

 

[AZ_]

There's no debate when I'm right.

I pity you for falling into this incessant debate every time.

No point has been made here that hasn't been made 100 times on this board.

For shame.

 

[The Oi]

I pity you for falling into this incessant debate every time.

No point has been made here that hasn't been made 100 times on this board.

For shame.

Not a debate until I'm replying to someone else's incorrect opinion about the Tribe...which I will not. I feel like we're right on the precipice of finally putting this to rest and I'm willing to throw a post blanket on to put out the fire.