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2013 Cleveland Browns

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Re: 2013 Browns Minicamp / OTA / Training Camp Coverage and Updates

Mac said:
The kicker is NEVER an issue with the players...

Moving on.....
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Exactly.

This is a distraction to the media who make a living off of conjuring up topics every day.. The media loves to take their little jabs at the Browns; they've been doing it for 15 years. This also may be a distraction to the drunk who sits at the end of the local tavern and complains about anything.

For the Browns... This isn't a distraction. The front office obviously doesn't see the position of kicker/punter to be integral to team success, so they did what they did.

Last year, it was "oh, the Browns only have a kicker", now it is "shit, the Browns NEED a kicker". I'm not mad.. It is just being a fanatic. Lets just not take this whole thing further than it needs to go.
 
Re: 2013 Browns Minicamp / OTA / Training Camp Coverage and Updates

The only thing that was distracting about the kicker is every single moron going on talk radio and complaining about it.

Personally, I don't care. Cundiff isn't a huge drop off from Dawson and he's about 2 million cheaper. So...yay? I guess?

I'm more concerned that our QB looked like shit the last time we saw him, we have no RB depth, we are missing our #1 WR, our RG situation is not very good at all, and our secondary is pretty pathetic. Thank god we play the Dolphins week 1 so Tannehill doesn't expose our weak secondary.
 
Re: 2013 Browns Minicamp / OTA / Training Camp Coverage and Updates

Can anyone answer me this? There are 32 pro kicker jobs available in the NFL. How is it every single one of these positions isn't full with a stud? Your only job is to kick the fucking ball. There has to be people who can fucking do it.
 
Re: 2013 Browns Minicamp / OTA / Training Camp Coverage and Updates

Not nearly enough of this thread has been dedicated to kickers, so I thought this old Bill Barnwell excerpt on the subject was worth including...
Meanwhile, kickers everywhere are being barred from free agency by their organizations, with no fewer than five teams essentially ensuring that they'll keep their kickers in 2012 by sticking the franchise tag on them. The fact that they're insistent upon paying a premium for the guys they had last season shows a depressing level of knowledge about the game among decision-makers in front offices.
<br>
The reality is that kickers just aren't consistent from year to year. If kicking were a consistent skill, guys who are scary accurate in one season would also be at the top of the leaderboards the following season. Research has shown that not to be the case. Here's a simple chart we put together, consisting of every kicker since 1999 who attempted 20 field goals or more in each of two consecutive seasons. You're about to realize just how maddeningly inconsistent placekickers are.
<aside class="mod-inline content-box border-full full">
<div class="content">
<table class="alt-rows">
<thead>
<tr>
<th>From</th>
<th>To</th>
<th>Kickers</th>
<th>Group Avg, Year 2</th>
</tr>
</thead>
<tbody>
<tr class="last">
<td>70.0%</td>
<td>74.9%</td>
<td>30</td>
<td>82.4%</td>
</tr>
<tr class="last">
<td>75.0%</td>
<td>79.9%</td>
<td>52</td>
<td>81.8%</td>
</tr>
<tr class="last">
<td>80.0%</td>
<td>84.9%</td>
<td>74</td>
<td>82.8%</td>
</tr>
<tr class="last">
<td>85.0%</td>
<td>88.9%</td>
<td>59</td>
<td>82.6%</td>
</tr>
<tr class="last">
<td>89.0%</td>
<td>99.9%</td>
<td>41</td>
<td>81.1%</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
</aside>


Look at that chart again. That's crazy. If you take the league's most accurate kickers in a given season and compare them to the NFL's least accurate ones, the least accurate kickers are better on field goals in the subsequent season. Of those 41 kickers who had seasons where they converted 89 percent of their kicks or more, just four of them repeated the feat in the following year. The reality is that kickers don't have a big enough sample size in a given season to exhibit a true level of ability; think about how accurate or inaccurate a quarterback can be in 30 pass attempts, or how a .300 hitter can go 2-for-33 and nobody blinks an eye. That's a full season for a kicker. You're better off using a kicker's performance over three or four seasons to judge his true level of ability.
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Using 4 year sample sizes shows that Dawson is a superior kicker to Cundiff, but the over historical data also suggests that making a multi-year commitment to a kicker at a high cap number (relative to position) might not be the best move for a team in the Browns current position.
 
Re: 2013 Browns Minicamp / OTA / Training Camp Coverage and Updates

Ocelot said:
Using 4 year sample sizes shows that Dawson is a superior kicker to Cundiff, but the over historical data also suggests that making a multi-year commitment to a kicker at a high cap number (relative to position) might not be the best move for a team in the Browns current position.
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I think that re-signing Dawson would've been a smart move, but that ship has sailed. I am not going to lambaste the front office for deciding that other parts of the team are more important.
 
Re: 2013 Browns Minicamp / OTA / Training Camp Coverage and Updates

Amherstcavsfan said:
The only thing that was distracting about the kicker is every single moron going on talk radio and complaining about it.

Personally, I don't care. Cundiff isn't a huge drop off from Dawson and he's about 2 million cheaper. So...yay? I guess?

I'm more concerned that our QB looked like shit the last time we saw him, we have no RB depth, we are missing our #1 WR, our RG situation is not very good at all, and our secondary is pretty pathetic. Thank god we play the Dolphins week 1 so Tannehill doesn't expose our weak secondary.
Click to expand...

Cundiff is less reliable than Dawson. He has had success in the league but lately has had the yips so there is that. Bottom line, we used Dawson the last few years as a crutch. Instead of being aggressive on the other side of the field we basically said, lets get what we can get and make sure we don't make a mistake because we are guaranteed 3 pts. Without a reliable long distance kicker, we will take more chances and be more aggressive getting the first down instead of playing not to lose field position.

The RB depth position is interesting. Who knows what we have with the 2 guys we picked up. I'm not sure the Browns know what they have. Hopefully it is something reasonable. I would have kept Jackson on the roster for the first few weeks to prove out Richardson's health and get a look at the new RBs. You didn't have to play him but at least have him at your disposal. We could have spared one of the 11-12 offensive lineman we kept. Hopefully Richardson doesn't get hurt, but when MoHard and Lewis went down, any kind of Richardson injury would've screw us.

Not sure what the Browns could have done with the WR position. Gordon has to not be a dumb ass is all. That area could be a concern for the first 2 games for sure. If they wanted to improve this position, the time to do it was free agency and the draft not at cut down time.

Right Guard is another area for concern. Oneil Cousins has been terrible everywhere he's played. I'm sure he'll be terrible at RG too. I can't blame this position on the Browns. I mean Cousins came into camp as the 3rd string guard at best. 1st and 2nd string guys both got hurt, it's football, it happens.

I disagree on the secondary comment. The safeties will be fine. Ward is above average and I think Gipson/Bademosi will be acceptable. Obviously Haden is as good as anyone can ask for. Where we are struggling is the 2nd corner spot. Both Owens and Skrine are best as nickle backs and they would be ok in that role on most teams. However; we are asking 1 to be a 2nd CB which is where there is a weak spot. I would say that position alone is the problem not the secondary.
 
Re: 2013 Browns Minicamp / OTA / Training Camp Coverage and Updates

Ocelot said:
Not nearly enough of this thread has been dedicated to kickers, so I thought this old Bill Barnwell excerpt on the subject was worth including...


Using 4 year sample sizes shows that Dawson is a superior kicker to Cundiff, but the over historical data also suggests that making a multi-year commitment to a kicker at a high cap number (relative to position) might not be the best move for a team in the Browns current position.
Click to expand...

That chart tells me that kickers will revert to the mean over a large sample size. The mean being in the low 80% range. There are a lot of variables in kicking. A number of things can go wrong from the snap, the hold, the protection and the wind/conditions. All those things are out of the control of the kicker with the exception of the wind and even that, he can't control when the wind will gust or not.

Dawson was here for so long, was so good recently and basically was our entire offense that everyone is hyper sensitive over the issue. Hopefully the role of the kicker going forward won't be as crucial as it was in years past.
 
Re: 2013 Browns Minicamp / OTA / Training Camp Coverage and Updates

Phills14 said:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Browns reached agreement with K Billy Cundiff.</p>— Adam Schefter (@AdamSchefter) <a href="https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/statuses/374987606188392448">September 3, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

boom
Click to expand...


Hopefully he can learn the plays in time to play in the first game.
 
Re: 2013 Browns Minicamp / OTA / Training Camp Coverage and Updates

Doc Shakalou said:
Can anyone answer me this? There are 32 pro kicker jobs available in the NFL. How is it every single one of these positions isn't full with a stud? Your only job is to kick the fucking ball. There has to be people who can fucking do it.
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I will answer that with a thought:

The same exact thing can be said for a starting QB.
 
Re: 2013 Browns Minicamp / OTA / Training Camp Coverage and Updates

Lee said:
I will answer that with a thought:

The same exact thing can be said for a starting QB.
Click to expand...

I don't really agree with that comparison. A quarterback has to have arm strength, pocket awareness, down the field vision, as well as the ability to 'look off' defenders. The quarterback has to take in information before the snap, and make the appropriate adjustment. If it is a passing play, he has to take in information after the snap, identify the open receiver, and then throw the ball accurately to where the receiver will be.

A kicker has a lot more time to deal with the information he needs to digest. It's a battle against yourself and the elements. I would compare it more to golfing than football. And everyone knows golfing is pretty fucking hard. The only real-time variable the kicker needs to be cautious of is the holder, but the holders don't really fuck up all that often. The bad part about Cleveland is that their field is next to the lake which causes some fucked up wind patterns.

There is a reason kickers kick better in domes.

That being said, I think the kicking situation is blown way out of proportion. Kickers should be the last thing you worry about as they are very replaceable from 0-45 yards. Phil Dawson was good because he could kick 50+ yards in the hurricane that was Cleveland Browns Stadium. If we are kicking 50+ yard field goals regularly, then the kicker is the least of our worries.
 
Re: 2013 Browns Minicamp / OTA / Training Camp Coverage and Updates

This week is going by very slowly. Can't remember a week like this in a while. Never been so excited to watch the Ravens play.
 
Re: 2013 Browns Minicamp / OTA / Training Camp Coverage and Updates

Doc Shakalou said:
Can anyone answer me this? There are 32 pro kicker jobs available in the NFL. How is it every single one of these positions isn't full with a stud? Your only job is to kick the fucking ball. There has to be people who can fucking do it.
Click to expand...

If I were a parent, I would set up mini goal posts, give my kid a tee and a ball at the age of 2 and tell him to start kicking.

Facts:

1. You rarely, if ever, get injured (or injured enough to miss significant time)
2. The longevity of Kickers are longer than any other position
3. Making $750k-$3M for 10-15 years is a great plan
4. You brain won't be soup when you retire
5. You will be able to walk to your coffin

It is mind numbing to see how many bad kickers there are.
 
Re: 2013 Browns Minicamp / OTA / Training Camp Coverage and Updates

Phills14 said:
Cundiff is less reliable than Dawson.
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Never said he was equal. Cundiff is a good kicker when his head is on straight, perhaps being out for a while will clear his head.

I do know I'd rather pay my kicker 800K to be average rather than 2.5M to be very good. A bad kicker can be easily overcome with superior talent.
 
Re: 2013 Browns Minicamp / OTA / Training Camp Coverage and Updates

BrownsBoy315 said:
This week is going by very slowly. Can't remember a week like this in a while. Never been so excited to watch the Broncos play.
Click to expand...
Fixed.
 
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