The 2020 Cleveland Indians

Sebastian said:

Not to get off topic, but how do you guys see the Tribe doing this year?

Can I come back to Baseball fandom?

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I would say they're so much better than they were at the start of the 2019 season it's scary. Look at the situation then.

Corey Kluber was our #1 starter. He had been held back in spring training after flaming out late the previous season and having pitched 200+ innings five consecutive years. We didn't know it at the time but he was running on fumes. His ERA was 5.80 before his season was mercifully ended by a line drive.

We didn't know it but another top starter, Carlos Carrasco, had cancer. He had a 4.98 ERA before the problem was diagnosed two months into the season.

Leonys Martin was our starting centerfielder. He was coming off an illness that almost took his life. He hit .199 in 236 at-bats before the Indians pulled the plug.

As if having Martin in center wasn't bad enough, they also gave 154 at-bats to Hanley Ramirez and Carlos Gonzalez, hoping to squeeze one more decent year out of their corpses. They hit .184 and .210.

Franmil Reyes, Oscar Mercado, Zach Plesac, and Aaron Civale did not join the team until later in the season. This year they'll be there from day one, replacing the ineffective Martin, Ramirez, Gonzalez, Kluber, and Carrasco that we were depending on last year.

They also gave Jake Bauers 372 at-bats in the middle of the batting order. He hit .229/.683. I doubt he will be playing much. Those at-bats will probably go to Jordan Luplow, who proved he deserves to play more last year, and Domingo Santana, who is a bit of an unknown but at least he is young and was very productive last year until injuring his elbow.

You could also argue that Hernandez is an upgrade from Kipnis and not get much pushback.

On paper this team returns all its' best players from last year and has significantly upgraded the starting pitching and outfield from where they were when they broke camp last year. The bullpen is the big question but the only good reliever that left was Tyler Clippard and he was a middle inning guy. Otherwise the relievers that left were not very successful, although Goody wasn't bad.

Brad Hand, the key reliever, had a great first half but after coming in five times in six days in late June the bottom fell out and he ended up with a 5.83 ERA in August and 7.71 in September. With a 60-game season this year he'll only have a first half to worry about.

We still have Wittgren as a setup man but the big question is whether Karinchak or somebody else can take Clippard's spot. Nobody talks about Clippard but in 62 innings he gave up only 38 hits and struck out 64. He had 8 holds and a 0.85 WHIP. He had no trouble finding a job after the Indians let him go. In fact, the Twins signed him and I heard they're not a bad team. Ciippard's loss concerns me a bit but I think Karinchak can step into that spot and do as well.

The Indians weren't as good as they looked on paper in April of 2019. They look a lot stronger now, but there were things we didn't know then and there could be things we don't know now. At least we're not counting on over-30's like Kluber, Martin, Hanley Ramirez, Gonzalez and Otero this year.

The wild card, of course, is the coronavirus, which could throw all the plans and expectations out the window.

Sebastian said:

Not to get off topic, but how do you guys see the Tribe doing this year?

Can I come back to Baseball fandom?

Click to expand...

I’m fucking stoked for some baseball. About this time in a normal year I’m in and out. 60 games, no one knows what the hell is gonna happen.
It’s a big race, anyone who gets hot is gonna roll. I’m hoping a team who had little to no chance, comes out of nowhere and causes havoc.

Derek said:

@bob2the2nd I'm not sure how you can say the players shot themselves in the foot? They got the most possible games out of the owners and didn't have to give up their right to a grievance nor do they have to play expanded playoffs.

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they gave up money, benefits, and games so they can hold on to the hail mary attempt at a grievance. the MLBPA walking mantra was "when and where" and when MLB started negotiating with them the PA said "NO, i would rather have the option to sue your ass"

fucking petulant children....

bob2the2nd said:

they gave up money, benefits, and games so they can hold on to the hail mary attempt at a grievance.

fucking petulant children....

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Whatever money they gave up was minuscule, and they're getting the most amount of games that the owners were willing to offer. Also, not having to play expanded playoffs was a big deal as well.

I don't understand your vitriol at all.

They didn't give up money (at least not real money, it was some playoff money chump change)
They didn't give up games
They did give up a few benefits admittedly, but that's a reasonable trade-off for no expanded playoffs and the retain your right to a grievance

jup said:

So if you take Manfred at his word, when he says the league never intended on playing more than 60 games, then it is pretty hard to understand how an offer for more games was made in good faith. And if they never intended on playing more than 60 games, which is what he said, then what the heck does - when the data was less clear - have to do with it.

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Obviously, the "never intended" is always subject to subsequent events. If the virus would have died down, or not been a problem 60 games into the season, they wouldn't have cancelled the remaining games just to screw themselves over. Manfred's point was that they didn't think that was likely.

Here's the meta: the owners' money would only come if/when the playoffs are played, so if a longer regular season would have been cancelled before completion, that would have screwed the owners more so than the players. They offered a longer season -- that likely wouldn't have been completed -- at only a percentage of full pay because cancellation would cost the owners a shitload of playoff money. They probably calculated it out so that their total losses were close to equal either way.

They didn't really have any other options if they actually wanted to (as they and the union are required legally to do...) engage in back and forth bargaining, because the players refused to budge an inch off their "only full salaries" position.

Here's an article that matches a lot of my thoughts on the result of the negotiations. I do, however, believe this was written prior to a couple of final inclusions (such as the universal DH).

Derek said:

Whatever money they gave up was minuscule, and they're getting the most amount of games that the owners were willing to offer. Also, not having to play expanded playoffs was a big deal as well.

I don't understand your vitriol at all.

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The players had the owners pinned to the wall when it came to negotiating. All they had to do was show up accept the last offer by the owners and they would have come out smelling like roses to the all of the fans (you know the assholes that actually pay their salaries). There are literally dozens of stories about this throughout the internet from various news sources. The players had won negotiating. Fans would have been super excited, the players would have have the publics backing when new negotiations come around in a year. It was a win for the sport. All they had to do was sign that dotted line.

Instead they turned down the deal so they could try to sue, in a hail mary attempt to try and get a little bit more money. It became very clear the players dont give a flying fuck about the sport or the fans.

So yeah im a little fucking bitter.

bob2the2nd said:

they gave up money, benefits, and games so they can hold on to the hail mary attempt at a grievance. the MLBPA walking mantra was "when and where" and when MLB started negotiating with them the PA said "NO, i would rather have the option to sue your ass"

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The chances of winning that are slim and none.

The owners pretty much ended any shot at that when they implemented 60 games rather than something less.

You don't get money just from a finding that there was some bad faith during the bargaining process. There must be a conclusion that absent the bad faith, the grieving party would have made more money. So to find for the players, the arbitrator -- and any court that would be asked later to enforce that arbitrator's order -- would have to find that the owners should have scheduled more regular season games than they actually did in the face of covid, and that the players are entitled to that extra pay.

Who is going to order that? The owners could present a shitload of current documentation from experts saying 1) it's too dangerous to play later, and 2) they perhaps shouldn't be playing at all. Training camps getting shut down, players getting sick....it's just not going to happen. If the players would have accepted one of the offers for more games at partial pay, and had Manfred then cancelled - in bad faith - the season partway through, they might have had a better argument that they should be entitled to full pay for the games actually played.

But that's not what happened. As it turned out, Manfred ended up implementing the exact thing he said they had determined could be played safely, and the players are getting full pay for that. I just don't see the argument for getting more money. The owners case is aided massively by the fact that the players never came below 70 games at full pay. Given that was the players absolute bottom line, the fact that an impasse was reached when the owners offered 60 games is important, because they can claim to have tried everything they could to reach an agreement, but there simply wasn't one to be made. Had the players said "we accept the offer except we refuse to waive the right to file a grievance", they'd have a slightly stronger argument.

bob2the2nd said:

The players had the owners pinned to the wall when it came to negotiating. All they had to do was show up accept the last offer by the owners and they would have come out smelling like roses to the all of the fans (you know the assholes that actually pay their salaries). There are literally dozens of stories about this throughout the internet from various news sources. The players had won negotiating. Fans would have been super excited, the players would have have the publics backing when new negotiations come around in a year. It was a win for the sport. All they had to do was sign that dotted line.

Instead they turned down the deal so they could try to sue, in a hail mary attempt to try and get a little bit more money. It became very clear the players dont give a flying fuck about the sport or the fans.

So yeah im a little fucking bitter.

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I think there are some fans that will feel that way, and I'm one of them too. ButI think a lot of casual fans only knew about negotiations what they heard in passing, and just know that there are games. They'll have long forgotten the details as to how that happened. Except...if it gets really nasty for the next CBA and there is a strike, I suspect they'll be reminded of what happened.

Guys, I'm going to start a thread on MLB Collective Bargaining, where we can discuss all of this to our heart's content without cluttering up this Tribe-specific thread.

@Derek @Out of the Rafters at the Q @bob2the2nd @jup

bob2the2nd said:

The players had the owners pinned to the wall when it came to negotiating. All they had to do was show up accept the last offer by the owners and they would have come out smelling like roses to the all of the fans (you know the assholes that actually pay their salaries). There are literally dozens of stories about this throughout the internet from various news sources. The players had won negotiating. Fans would have been super excited, the players would have have the publics backing when new negotiations come around in a year. It was a win for the sport. All they had to do was sign that dotted line.

Instead they turned down the deal so they could try to sue, in a hail mary attempt to try and get a little bit more money. It became very clear the players dont give a flying fuck about the sport or the fans.

So yeah im a little fucking bitter.

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I could not disagree with you more, so I guess we'll just leave it at that.

We are in two different galaxies.

Sebastian said:

Not to get off topic, but how do you guys see the Tribe doing this year?

Can I come back to Baseball fandom?

Click to expand...

I had the Indians winning the World Series this season so I still think they are a legit team either way.

If you look at the roster, our rotation should be pretty solid. No one in baseball has our depth overall in the starting rotation. Now there are teams on paper with better 4/5 guys since ours isn't 100% proven, but other than that, I dont doubt we can match anyone in that department. Though I am not sure about this season, since pitchers never had a chance to get stretched out so I dont know how much that will effect them.

Our bullpen actually exceeded their abilities on paper last season, so in a way it may be hard to repeat that, but we have a ton of dynamic arms for the bullpen in the upper minors/just getting to the pros. Now with the fact the bullpen will be taxed cause of the limited number of pitches the starters can go early, i wonder if the young talent has progressed to be able to match the load they could get.

Catchers, we don't have to worry able handling the staff, we just have to hope they produce at the plate.

Our starting INF, can match just about anyone in baseball, so no worries there. When it comes to DH, we should be fine as well, Reyes, Domingo

With the delay in the season, we should have Naquin back, with Mercado, Luplow and one of the mashing guys(Reyes, Domingo) in the other OF spots and DeShields/Allen to be a defensive replacement.

We have the unproven Arroyo and the surprise guy from last season Mike Freeman to be our INF utility guys. Arroyo has shown a pretty good glove, but so-so bat and been injury prone. Bauers and Bradley are in the mix for a bench spot.

So from all of that, I feel like pitching will be fine, and if injuries happen, we got some great potential overall there, so i am not worried. I think our starting lineup should be solid, but i don't trust our depth bats (I wouldnt bet on them to produce at a good level).

Oh sure this Indians squad has question marks and apparent gaps, but so does most everyone...overall I love our pitching potential and defense...I feel confident we'll score "enough" runs. I like our chances, but this season is of course abbreviated, and wacky in its run up...we'll have to be lucky, too.

LL3 said:

Oh sure this Indians squad has question marks and apparent gaps, but so does most everyone...overall I love our pitching potential and defense...I feel confident we'll score "enough" runs. I like our chances, but this season is of course abbreviated, and wacky in its run up...we'll have to be a lucky, too.

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Not many teams can trot out a rotation of Bieber, Clevinger, Cookie, Civale along with two potential MVP caliber players in the field.

I'd love to see a better bullpen. I wish Clase were healthy, not suspended, and ready to go. I think the shortened season will hurt us as we like to play the waiting game to pick up value pieces at the deadline instead of blowing our wad on question marks during the offseason.

Out of the Rafters at the Q said:

Not many teams can trot out a rotation of Bieber, Clevinger, Cookie, Civale along with two potential MVP caliber players in the field.

I'd love to see a better bullpen. I wish Clase were healthy, not suspended, and ready to go. I think the shortened season will hurt us as we like to play the waiting game to pick up value pieces at the deadline instead of blowing our wad on question marks during the offseason.

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I am sure I have stated it before, but I am very disappointed by the Clase suspension....I had very high hopes for him/our bullpen. We need Hand to return to form (really do), and I am very excited about what Karinchak can bring, and I think we have some good contributors beyond that. Bullpens can be quite variable, but I am not that concerned with ours.

The compressed season may alter what have previously found typical....we'll see, I guess.