The 2020 Cleveland Indians

Out of the Rafters at the Q said:

Not many teams can trot out a rotation of Bieber, Clevinger, Cookie, Civale along with two potential MVP caliber players in the field.

I'd love to see a better bullpen. I wish Clase were healthy, not suspended, and ready to go. I think the shortened season will hurt us as we like to play the waiting game to pick up value pieces at the deadline instead of blowing our wad on question marks during the offseason.

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Lots of expectations in that starting rotation, not sure you are going to get as much as many expect

jup said:

Lots of expectations in that starting rotation, not sure you are going to get as much as many expect

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Based on what?

Sure, Civale is a relative unknown, but I feel like we have a good idea what to expect out of the rest

jup said:

Lots of expectations in that starting rotation, not sure you are going to get as much as many expect

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Do you think an abbreviated season helps or hurts the potential production of the 4 pitchers you noted? If you believe a standard season may "expose" that quartet, is this a better scenario?

Derek said:

Based on what?

Sure, Civale is a relative unknown, but I feel like we have a good idea what to expect out of the rest

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Civale does not have much of a track record, and Cookie has had significant health issues, but Bieber and Clev make me feel pretty good. Lots of questions in this season, but I feel pretty good as to the pitching, and (somewhat related) the defense.

LL3 said:

Civale does not have much of a track record, and Cookie has had significant health issues, but Bieber and Clev make me feel pretty good. Lots of questions in this season, but I feel pretty good as to the pitching, and (somewhat related) the defense.

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Obviously we're all aware of Cookie's health issues, but when he pitched last year, his stuff was there. He had some endurance issues and couldn't get stretched out in time toward the end of the year to contribute from the rotation, but a shortened season with an expanded bullpen should assuage his issues.

Derek said:

Obviously we're all aware of Cookie's health issues, but when he pitched last year, his stuff was there. He had some endurance issues and couldn't get stretched out in time toward the end of the year to contribute from the rotation, but a shortened season with an expanded bullpen should assuage his issues.

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Agree -- not that concerned. I believe we have some acceptable depth as well.

LL3 said:

Agree -- not that concerned. I believe we have some acceptable depth as well.

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I'm not a big Plesac believer, but you can't ignore his success thus far either. I hope he can make a few adjustments to ease my concerns about sustainability though.

LL3 said:

Do you think an abbreviated season helps or hurts the potential production of the 4 pitchers you noted? If you believe a standard season may "expose" that quartet, is this a better scenario?

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Clevinger it helps. He can't hold his performance for 162 games. Not that he is an off season slacker, but it is the relentless party during the season that keeps him from staying in top form. A sprint is definitely a plus for him.

It is also a plus for Cookie, as the demands on a healthy body over 162 is tough, non the less a compromised one. Cookie hates pitching in the cold so he gets to skip Mar/Apr, which should help. Only problem is he hates pitching when it is to hot also.

Bieber it doesn't help. He is a plow horse that makes his money by being slow and steady. He is not a sprinter. And he still has some stuff (even though no one here will probably agree with) that needs to be done before he becomes the "bonified ace" that Cleveland fans are already convinced he is.

Civale - who knows when the league will figure out how his strategy works and how to counteract it. Probably a short season favors him, as there will be less information to dissect him with before the season is over.

So I would say a sprint is better for the Indians, rotation wise. But historically they have been a slow starter under Francona, and it remains to be seen if that will continue this year.

Derek said:

Based on what?

Sure, Civale is a relative unknown, but I feel like we have a good idea what to expect out of the rest

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Based on knowing the pitchers and knowing pitching.

You may not want to accept that and that is fine.

Derek said:

I'm not a big Plesac believer, but you can't ignore his success thus far either. I hope he can make a few adjustments to ease my concerns about sustainability though.

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Plesac is probably the best arm (discounting Clevinger) you have. But he and Clevinger are not a good mix. Birds of a feather.

jup said:

Clevinger it helps. He can't hold his performance for 162 games. Not that he is an off season slacker, but it is the relentless party during the season that keeps him from staying in top form. A sprint is definitely a plus for him.

It is also a plus for Cookie, as the demands on a healthy body over 162 is tough, non the less a compromised one. Cookie hates pitching in the cold so he gets to skip Mar/Apr, which should help. Only problem is he hates pitching when it is to hot also.

Bieber it doesn't help. He is a plow horse that makes his money by being slow and steady. He is not a sprinter. And he still has some stuff (even though no one here will probably agree with) that needs to be done before he becomes the "bonified ace" that Cleveland fans are already convinced he is.

Civale - who knows when the league will figure out how his strategy works and how to counteract it. Probably a short season favors him, as there will be less information to dissect him with before the season is over.

So I would say a sprint is better for the Indians, rotation wise. But historically they have been a slow starter under Francona, and it remains to be seen if that will continue this year.

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I take issue with the bolded. Maybe they come out and stink or are mediocre for 60 games, but I don't think that has anything to do with our slow starts in the past.

You manage players differently in March/April/May that you do in August/September, and the weather is another huge factor. Tito has shown an above-average ability to manage playoff-style games (which is basically what this entire season will be). If anything, this shortened season should play right into our hands given our usual style of play.

If they play poorly, I don't think it will have anything to do with being typical slow starters simply because the circumstances around the start of the season are so wildly different.

jup said:

Based on knowing the pitchers and knowing pitching.

You may not want to accept that and that is fine.

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Thanks for big-timing and belittling me with a total non-answer

jup said:

Plesac is probably the best arm (discounting Clevinger) you have. But he and Clevinger are not a good mix. Birds of a feather.

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Plesac has just never missed enough bats for my liking.

We do have a history of helping guys with that once they reach the majors, so I'm not declaring him dead in the water or anything. He's just my least favorite of the bunch due to the lack of swings and misses.

delete

Derek said:

Thanks for big-timing and belittling me with a total non-answer

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No belittlement intended.

I work in the industry (pitching), know pitchers personally (3 in particular on the Indians staff), but invariably people on a forum such as this believe it is all hot air and making myself out to be something I'm not.

So my answer was brief and to the point. I know pitching and I know pitchers. In this particular case on the staff. But the chances of that being believable in a forum like this is slim and none. So that is the part about - it is up to you in choosing whether you buy it or not.

jup said:

No belittlement intended.

I work in the industry (pitching), know pitchers personally (3 in particular on the Indians staff), but invariably people on a forum such as this believe it is all hot air and making myself out to be something I'm not.

So my answer was brief and to the point. I know pitching and I know pitchers. In this particular case on the staff. But the chances of that being believable in a forum like this is slim and none. So that is the part about - it is up to you in choosing whether you buy it or not.

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Then tell me why we're expecting too much! I've been coaching and training basketball players since I was 20 (I'll be 32 soon), but I don't just go into the prospect threads and say LaMelo Ball is overrated because I know basketball.

If "Because I know" is all you want to type, then why post on a discussion forum?



So, here's our chance at a fresh start!

I know Civale and Plesac's numbers from last year aren't sustainable, but I'm hopeful we see some improvements from year 1 to 2 as well.

I know Bieber hangs a few too many pitches, but ultimately all his peripherals line up with his production.

I know Clev has issues with durability, but boy does he look special when he's out there.

We all know what Cookie has gone through, so I understand being wary of his abilities moving forward, but he still did a lot of things last year (even at less than 100%) that give me optimism for him moving forward.

All in all a shortened season favors Clev/Cookie as you stated in an earlier post, Biebs will likely be Biebs, and Civale/Plesac are kind of question marks. Still, I think we should expect them to combine (like with others as well) to be one of the top 5-7 staffs in the league.

So again I'll ask, what am I missing?