2021 Around MLB: Return of the Dead Ball Era

sportscoach said:

Honestly guys like Ty Cobb would love our current defensive system, his batting avg would go way up!

Pitching and defense has improved a lot over the years, but one thing I don't think has is bat control and hitters patience...

I honestly feel like we have advocated too much for power and not enough for contact and bat control. Good hits come from good swings and from good hand eye coordination to hit two strike pitches/outside pitches the other way. The best hitters in my mind can almost place the ball on the field at times and that's not something we teach anymore it feels like in my mind.

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Why do you think this?

Defenses just wouldn't shift against Cobb.

CDAV45 said:

No you really haven't. You say you love the game as it is. My question is did you love it as much prior to the big move to shifting which has occurred fairly recently. Or did you love it then too? The point is while you're opinion is to leave the game alone, it changed right before our eyes. If you are an opponent to change then you should have been speaking against the severe shifting, and maybe you were.

You also stated that baseball is a series of adjustments between pitchers and hitters. I told you that hitters are basically out of options and asked you what your foresight for hitter adjustments was. I know this conversation is going in many different directions for you so sorry for any confusion.

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1900: Teams place their defenders where they feel they have the best chance to make an out
1970: Teams place their defenders where they feel they have the best chance to make an out
2021: Teams place their defenders where they feel they have the best chance to make an out

You keep saying things changed. The only thing that happened is that teams got smarter.

You are the one who isn't okay with the fact that things haven't changed in response to this, and are advocating change in response to it.

Derek said:

I’m not trying to convince anyone. As I said, to each their own.

I’m just explaining again that I love the game as is.

It’s not my job to make the game more popular, and whether it’s wildly popular or not has no impact on me.

I’m advocating for what I want to see, and that’s for it to continue with the shift.

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We don’t disagree much at all on the game itself. The difference is you don’t care if the game becomes less popular and I’m willing to live with some changes I don’t necessarily like in order to make the popularity go back up. No right or wrong there.

The argument I’ve really been making ITT is as a business (not a fan’s perspective), I believe MLB needs to find strategies that make it more popular (marketing, streaming, on field changes, more little league games, whatever). I don’t think there’s any arguing that.

The US has some many sports that one can play and all could make a solid living from if you make it to the top... Basketball, you need a ball and a hoop, without a ton of space... Same with soccer and football kids play just wherever there is space and a ball. Baseball on the other hand takes space and a ball and other factors like the gloves and whatnot. In the US, which game you gonna pick up first in the city?

The kids in the Latin American countries will play with whatever they have to imitate the pro baseball players while in the US the kids pick up a football first. Most of the younger crowds who are baseball fans are the guys who almost always picked the baseball up first from more fluent homes. Until baseball becomes something that all groups Have access to at an early age, it's going to be very hard to get baseball to grow.

Then factor in NFL and NBA do a great job of promoting the players themselves (basketball almost does it too much), while in baseball, unless you are a baseball person, you can barely name players from a franchise you don't follow. I mean even someone who will watch any baseball game like myself, I cannot name more than 50ish around the league, but I can easily name more (especially when I fantasy football) in the NBA and NFL.

Football is also mostly free to everyone which makes it's so huge, while baseball, with people cutting cable, is very hard to watch it live... As I said before MLB needs two options on their TV, both should have the MLB station, then one is a team only with no blackouts then a national one with blackouts. I think that would fix most of the issues and if it's 70-80 for one and the 100ish for the other, I would think as long as you have internet, nobody reasonable would complain at all.

There isn't a short term fix to beating the shift because for decades the basic fundamentals of hitting the baseball haven't been taught.

Why can't MLB players bunt? Because bunting is no long taught.

Mickey Mantle was one of the best switch hitting power bats of all time, maybe THE best. But he could also bunt.

And, yes. I want my power hitters to be able to go the other way. I want them to be able to use the entire field. Its not that easy to do, because for a decade, from the time they get out of high school, they arent taught to do it. Instead, they are taught to do one thing...elevate to their pull side.

So what if a power hitter uses the whole field? He then racks up a bunch of singles or doubles at the cost of a few home runs. His over all production increases.

His OBP goes up, while his SLG stays the same, although in a different way.

You don't have to be a slap hitter to use the entire field. Robbie Alomar certainly wasn't a slap hitter.

CATS44 said:

There isn't a short term fix to beating the shift because for decades the basic fundamentals of hitting the baseball haven't been taught.

Why can't MLB players bunt? Because bunting is no long taught.

Mickey Mantle was one of the best switch hitting power bats of all time, maybe THE best. But he could also bunt.

And, yes. I want my power hitters to be able to go the other way. I want them to be able to use the entire field. Its not that easy to do, because for a decade, from the time they get out of high school, they arent taught to do it. Instead, they are taught to do one thing...elevate to their pull side.

So what if a power hitter uses the whole field? He then racks up a bunch of singles or doubles at the cost of a few home runs. His over all production increases.

His OBP goes up, while his SLG stays the same, although in a different way.

You don't have to be a slap hitter to use the entire field. Robbie Alomar certainly wasn't a slap hitter.

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Yeah, you’re describing superstar hitters. They still exist, and they’re having a lot of success.

Out of the Rafters at the Q said:

1900: Teams place their defenders where they feel they have the best chance to make an out
1970: Teams place their defenders where they feel they have the best chance to make an out
2021: Teams place their defenders where they feel they have the best chance to make an out

You keep saying things changed. The only thing that happened is that teams got smarter.

You are the one who isn't okay with the fact that things haven't changed in response to this, and are advocating change in response to it.

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Pure BS. If you think the shift was used so dramatically or as frequently then you're crazy. They've changed and changed drastically.

And to be honest, I don't really care because I prefer power hitters, but those that think simply bunting or "hitting the ball the other way" is the answer are ignorant.

CDAV45 said:

And to be honest, I don't really care because I prefer power hitters

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No! You're kidding, right? I would never have guessed it...

CDAV45 said:

Pure BS. If you think the shift was used so dramatically or as frequently then you're crazy. They've changed and changed drastically.

And to be honest, I don't really care because I prefer power hitters, but those that think simply bunting or "hitting the ball the other way" is the answer are ignorant.

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You are failing to grasp fundamental, core concepts and language.

I never once said that shifting players the way you see them now was a tactic used in the past.

I never once made the arguments you stand up as your straw man in your second paragraph.

If you want to re-read what I wrote and try again, let me know. If not, no big deal.

Out of the Rafters at the Q said:

You are failing to grasp fundamental, core concepts and language.

I never once said that shifting players the way you see them now was a tactic used in the past.

I never once made the arguments you stand up as your straw man in your second paragraph.

If you want to re-read what I wrote and try again, let me know. If not, no big deal.

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Sorry Q, I reread it hoping I misunderstood what you said, but that doesn't appear to be the case. I'm not sure I get the straw man accusation either. What I do know is that you stated:

"You are the one who isn't okay with the fact that things haven't changed in response to this, and are advocating change in response to it."

Things have changed, but they have continued to do so since baseball began. The "traditionalist" say they like the game "the way it is", but the game hasn't always been "the way it is". It's an oxymoron. Over the decades changes have been made to keep a balance in the game, and right now it's unbalanced IMO. That's all I'm saying.

Rereading my post, it came across as dickish and that wasn't my intention so I apologize for that. I think this has been one of the better conversations had here in awhile.

oops!

CATS44 said:

There isn't a short term fix to beating the shift because for decades the basic fundamentals of hitting the baseball haven't been taught.

Why can't MLB players bunt? Because bunting is no long taught.

Mickey Mantle was one of the best switch hitting power bats of all time, maybe THE best. But he could also bunt.

And, yes. I want my power hitters to be able to go the other way. I want them to be able to use the entire field. Its not that easy to do, because for a decade, from the time they get out of high school, they arent taught to do it. Instead, they are taught to do one thing...elevate to their pull side.

So what if a power hitter uses the whole field? He then racks up a bunch of singles or doubles at the cost of a few home runs. His over all production increases.

His OBP goes up, while his SLG stays the same, although in a different way.

You don't have to be a slap hitter to use the entire field. Robbie Alomar certainly wasn't a slap hitter.

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CATS I think you may be oversimplifying the issue(if you want to call it that) a bit. I find it to be a reach that any of us know more than these professional coaches who almost to a man, played professional baseball. You certainly are entitled to your opinion though and I respect that. I believe the fundamentals are being taught, but what lead to success before is now significantly diminished so maybe the fundamentals are changing. For example, until recently I don't recall everyone in the field pulling cards from their hats and pockets to either see where to line up defensively or how to pitch to a hitter. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think previously it was more of a physical challenge between a pitcher with his defense, and a hitter. Pitchers pitched to their strengths instead of pitching to the defensive alignment. Players fielded their positions, which is mostly covered by 9 players. Now those 9 players are condensed and hitters are pitched to accordingly. In other words, analytics murdered the idea of the bunt along with the idea of playing traditional positions. There is actually statistical proof that a team is less likely to score when bunting which is why bunting is no longer ideal. There is also statistical proof that if a pitcher locates the ball in a certain area to a hitter then being able to predict where that ball is going to be hit increases significantly. I actually think you and I share many of the same ideals regarding this. Where we differ is how and why things have been shaped the way they are now. I don't see it as an argument though. Just different ideas.

Has anyone said they don't want their power hitters to not go the other way? Hell, I want all my hitters to have the ability to go the other way. It's one of those "fundamentals" IMO. I'm not sure how much baseball you played, but you hit the ball where it is pitched. You're not effectively "pulling" a ball on the outside corner and conversely you're not going the other way on a pitch in on your hands. When they consistently hammer a hitter in then he's going to pull the ball. That's nothing new. What is fairly new is that a hitter who hits the ball according to where it's pitched has to get it by an extra defender. I haven't looked into the data, but it wouldn't surprise me if hitters appear to be unluckier in recent years. So how do they remedy the shift you ask? Launch angle seems to be the consensus.

WhoAzcue said:

No! You're kidding, right? I would never have guessed it...

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I should clarify that is the case due to the circumstances because I absolutely love hitters like Brantley and Owen Miller. The problem is talented hitters like that are not common place, even at the professional level.

@CDAV45

You know that the current player positions aren't actually in the Rulebook if I remember correctly, so shifting is legal and SS used to be an OF, but that was the early years and the current group of fielding ended up being the way people see the game for a long time.

I am completely the opposite of you (and so is Cats) we believe that good swings and putting the ball in play creates more runs than just power. Traditionalists are that way more often than not while you are a newer gen of mentality. Batters with the shift need to find the middle ground since they need to learn how to hit the other way when necessary. The successful MLB players know how to do and the ones who are AAAA don't end up being able to do.

sportscoach said:

@CDAV45

You know that the current player positions aren't actually in the Rulebook if I remember correctly, so shifting is legal and SS used to be an OF, but that was the early years and the current group of fielding ended up being the way people see the game for a long time.

I am completely the opposite of you (and so is Cats) we believe that good swings and putting the ball in play creates more runs than just power. Traditionalists are that way more often than not while you are a newer gen of mentality. Batters with the shift need to find the middle ground since they need to learn how to hit the other way when necessary. The successful MLB players know how to do and the ones who are AAAA don't end up being able to do.

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Did you play baseball Coach? If you did, what position and how did you know where to go?

Your assessment is so far off target that it's difficult to know where to begin. I favor putting the ball in play, hitting the ball where it's pitched, and "good swings". Even a well placed bunt has a positive connotation in my view. The problem is that those fundamentals are analytically proven to be less effective in today's "modern" game which is why you don't see them as much as before. Batters have no middle ground to find Coach that I can think of. They are subjugated to how they are pitched. You're not going to pluck an orange from an apple tree, and you're not going to "go the other way" with an inside pitch. You don't "hit the other way when necessary" you hit the other way when given the opportunity. Good practices like "putting the ball in play" are strategically limited by data driven shifting. Baseball has experienced numerous changes over the course of its existence to "balance things" for a lack of a better description. Maybe you're not as traditionalist as you think.

The ironic, almost funny aspect to this entire conversation is that I don't know if I even have a stance on the subject. It can remain the same or change. It really doesn't matter to me. What is apparent to me is that if changes aren't made then what "traditionalists" hold dear will disappear like a fart in the wind. "Traditionalists" bitch about the lack of bunting, good swings, and going the other way, but seem to either lack the understanding as to why that is happening or are in complete denial. Something else that comes to my tiny little mind concerning you "traditionalists" is what period of baseball is "traditional" to you? Before bat size regulations or after? Before the mound was lowered or after? Prior to called strikes or after? Before or after ball size regulations?