(No Longer) Joe Woods’ Defense

J_J said:

It doesn’t make sense for JJ3 to play deep instead of playing more in the box. I saw a stat that JJ3 has played in the box with the Rams which he excelled much better. Wonder if pairing with Lecounte eventually with JJ3 would be better off. Definitely rather have Delpit as free safety than JJ3. I’m worried that our coach is not realizing how to use our players effectively.

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Berry's construction of the roster in the future aligns with what you are seeing. The problem is health and experience level.

JJ3 is a "do it all" safety who can play in the box, split safety in Cover 2 and quarters, and single high in Cover 3. Let's look further into why he is being used in quarters and single high.

Delpit was drafted with the same physical profile. If he is healthy, he is the ideal second safety to go with JJ3. I don't know how healthy he is coming off a major surgery. He seems to be on a snap count.

Let's also remember that Lacounte is both a rookie and coming off a serious scooter accident that caused him to fall to the fifth round.

Harrison was ranked in the top 30 by PFF last season for his prowess in the box. He is weaker in split coverage and a non-starter as single high.

Do you leave him off the field, or do you figure out how to get both of your healthy safeties in their prime on the field?

I have switched from wanting Harrison as a priority free agent in the 2022 off-season to wanting him to walk. That doesn't mean he is a bad fit right now as the young players bounce back from severe injuries.

Randolphkeys said:

Berry's construction of the roster in the future aligns with what you are seeing. The problem is health and experience level.

JJ3 is a "do it all" safety who can play in the box, split safety in Cover 2 and quarters, and single high in Cover 3. Let's look further into why he is being used in quarters and single high.

Delpit was drafted with the same physical profile. If he is healthy, he is the ideal second safety to go with JJ3. I don't know how healthy he is coming off a major surgery. He seems to be on a snap count.

Let's also remember that Lacounte is both a rookie and coming off a serious scooter accident that caused him to fall to the fifth round.

Harrison was ranked in the top 30 by PFF last season for his prowess in the box. He is weaker in split coverage and a non-starter as single high.

Do you leave him off the field, or do you figure out how to get both of your healthy safeties in their prime on the field?

I have switched from wanting Harrison as a priority free agent in the 2022 off-season to wanting him to walk. That doesn't mean he is a bad fit right now as the young players bounce back from severe injuries.

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Honest question here... at what point do you, Randolph, decide enough is enough?

Assume the defense continues as-is (ranked near the bottom of the league) and finish the season that way with the same issues it has now (miscommunication, blown assignments, etc...). Do you give Woods another year? Another 3 years? Where's your limit?

Vee-Rex said:

Honest question here... at what point do you, Randolph, decide enough is enough?

Assume the defense continues as-is (ranked near the bottom of the league) and finish the season that way with the same issues it has now (miscommunication, blown assignments, etc...). Do you give Woods another year? Another 3 years? Where's your limit?

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Are you watching Ted Lasso? Great show. Love the football fans who pound beers at the pub. They started his career calling him a wanker. They throw down drinks with him, partied with an assistant coach, all the while calling him a wanker and yelling he should be fired. Perfect stuff.

Many Browns fans online all day are not far removed. The first sign of the team being... imperfect is the best word; they want people to lose their jobs. Seriously look at the game thread from the Chiefs game. There's no difference between the people I laugh at in Ted Lasso for being drunken and reactionary in the pub and plenty of Browns fans online.

If a coach deserves a quick hook, I've lobbied for it. I gave Freddie less than two months before I wanted him gone. Joe Woods isn't Freddie Kitchens.

Randolphkeys said:

Are you watching Ted Lasso? Great show. Love the football fans who pound beers at the pub. They started his career calling him a wanker. They throw down drinks with him, partied with an assistant coach, all the while calling him a wanker and yelling he should be fired. Perfect stuff.

Many Browns fans online all day are not far removed. The first sign of the team being... imperfect is the best word; they want people to lose their jobs. Seriously look at the game thread from the Chiefs game. There's no difference between the people I laugh at in Ted Lasso for being drunken and reactionary in the pub and plenty of Browns fans online.

If a coach deserves a quick hook, I've lobbied for it. I gave Freddie less than two months before I wanted him gone. Joe Woods isn't Freddie Kitchens.

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Sure, it's easy to point to the ridiculousness of the reactionary fans.

I guess I'm wondering at what point do the results outweigh the reasons (injuries, players screwing up, etc...)? For me personally... two years (2020 and 2021) should be enough to show ~some~ kind of improvement. Even if we don't finish 2021 as a top 10 defense, I need to see better overall results, or at least a very promising stretch towards the end of the year. The NFL is very results-oriented regarding coaches, especially when the talent level of the team should be sufficient enough to be mediocre.

Randolphkeys said:

Good stuff, and this especially intrigues me. My biggest concern for the defense is 4-6 weeks without JOK rather than mental errors of the past.

I wonder if Woods is considering more Lacounte. The team isn't making splashy turnovers and the logic behind JJ3 as a pure free safety is being correctly questioned.

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Im very much on board with JOK out to be playing basically 4-1-6, with both JJ3 and Ronnie playing in the box and Lacounte and Delpit responsible over the top.

Randolphkeys said:

Joe Woods isn't Freddie Kitchens.

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Damned by faint praise.

I will also add

Being second best on 1/2 shows this team HAS talent that is successful, and that’s easily why this is the most frustrating.

Vee-Rex said:

Sure, it's easy to point to the ridiculousness of the reactionary fans.

I guess I'm wondering at what point do the results outweigh the reasons (injuries, players screwing up, etc...)? For me personally... two years (2020 and 2021) should be enough to show ~some~ kind of improvement. Even if we don't finish 2021 as a top 10 defense, I need to see better overall results, or at least a very promising stretch towards the end of the year. The NFL is very results-oriented regarding coaches, especially when the talent level of the team should be sufficient enough to be mediocre.

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There are going to be peaks and valleys for the defense throughout the season. After the Bears game, people might have been too quick to crown the defense for being elite, both in talent and in the cerebral part of the game.

This is an equal and opposite valley to that peak.

This game was supposed to be a shootout, just as the matchup with Herbert was expected to be. The shock should, in my opinion, rest more with the offense failing to keep up with Herbert and Murray than shock that Herbert and Murray played as expected.

If the offense looks like it's supposed to look, this thread isn't half as busy.

Randolphkeys said:

This game was supposed to be a shootout, just as the matchup with Herbert was expected to be. The shock should, in my opinion, rest more with the offense failing to keep up with Herbert and Murray than shock that Herbert and Murray played as expected.

If the offense looks like it's supposed to look, this thread isn't half as busy.

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This is the part that I get confused by. The Browns are DPJ exerting his will away from having ZERO points in a game. They've struggled to convert and score in several others. Even against Arizona, it's 23-14 going into halftime, after the defense holds two turnovers to field goals, despite getting the ball in the defenses side of the field, and they don't score again...

I'm more concerned with the offense than the defense. No opposing offense has done anything out of character/expectations. KC scored. The Chargers scored. Arizona scored. *Maybe* Houston scored more than expected, but thats it.

Randolphkeys said:

There are going to be peaks and valleys for the defense throughout the season. After the Bears game, people might have been too quick to crown the defense for being elite, both in talent and in the cerebral part of the game.

This is an equal and opposite valley to that peak.

This game was supposed to be a shootout, just as the matchup with Herbert was expected to be. The shock should, in my opinion, rest more with the offense failing to keep up with Herbert and Murray than shock that Herbert and Murray played as expected.

If the offense looks like it's supposed to look, this thread isn't half as busy.

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I don't know that I agree with this.

There is a clear and consistent problem with our defense particularly defending 3rd and 4th down, and it has dated back to last year. It's killing us this year... it has to be better. Can't really just hand-wave this stuff away or deflect by pointing at and blaming the offense. If we created a Peyton Manning + Tom Brady + Aaron Rodgers clone, it doesn't matter... 3rd and 13? Get off the field. 3rd and 19? Get off the field. It's occurs too regularly to brush away.

I think we've seen more turmoil on the offensive side with injuries and so forth, and we also have faith in Stefanski due to the team's long-sustained success under Stefanski/AVP. We give him the benefit of the doubt because... we saw what he has done. That same kind of expectation can't be given to the defense, because outside of a few games we haven't seen long-sustained defensive success with this team.

I'd take someone in the Harbaugh tree. We need an advantage somewhere when dealing with the competition inside the division. Baltimore's defense has been consistently good for the most part.

Bring us that philosophy, and Intel on Lamar. Problem is I doubt we go that route.

Matt Eberflus if Reich is canned at the end of the year and if he isn't in the running for a HC position already.

Former LB coach with the Browns when Mangini was HC. Toledo native, runs a 4-3, and the Colts defense has been really good outside of this season.

Couldn't tell you much about his scheme since I don't watch Colts' games but think he might be an interesting option.

Vee-Rex said:

There is a clear and consistent problem with our defense particularly defending 3rd and 4th down, and it has dated back to last year. It's killing us this year... it has to be better.

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That's where I draw a hard line. While fans want to draw parallels between the defense last year and this year, the team essentially rebooted a lost year of establishing long-term contributors. I wrote this on Twitter three weeks back:



These major contributors continue to be out of football entirely. Karl Joseph barely has a job. Shelton Richardson continues to play the Jordan Elliott role of relief defensive tackle for the Vikings. In short, they weren't NFL caliber players.

Vee-Rex said:

Can't really just hand-wave this stuff away or deflect by pointing at and blaming the offense. If we created a Peyton Manning + Tom Brady + Aaron Rodgers clone, it doesn't matter... 3rd and 13? Get off the field. 3rd and 19? Get off the field. It's occurs too regularly to brush away.

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I don't think I've said allowing third down conversions is perfectly fine. I've said the offenses they faced the past two weeks will make you pay for mental errors of any kind. Dumb defensive penalty? Issues making a tackle? Blown coverage? Damn right a top ten QB will make you pay.

Now let's jump to what Real Deal alluded to - a philosophical change in defense.

If the linebackers are still missing tackles, scheme means nothing.

If defensive tackles are being called for hands to the face, scheme doesn't matter.

Defensive backs run the wrong way?

Doesn't matter which zone a defensive coordinator called.

Execution is not an aspect of the team I plan to brush away at all... I will ask if these young players would make the same mistake for another coordinator. Right now, my answer would be yes.

Randolphkeys said:

That's where I draw a hard line. While fans want to draw parallels between the defense last year and this year, the team essentially rebooted a lost year of establishing long-term contributors. I wrote this on Twitter three weeks back:



These major contributors continue to be out of football entirely. Karl Joseph barely has a job. Shelton Richardson continues to play the Jordan Elliott role of relief defensive tackle for the Vikings. In short, they weren't NFL caliber players.

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I think you're missing my point.

That's all fine and dandy - I'm more than aware of our lack of talent last year. But that year doesn't get magically scrubbed away like it doesn't exist. It happened. And we had issues beyond just the talent with how Woods adjusted (or failed to) during games. The lifespan of a coach is harsh and it doesn't matter if we have a lack of talent for x number of years - the results determine everything.

That's why I specifically asked where you would draw the line - doesn't matter that we had very little talent, or players are screwing up execution, or there isn't good communication. After a certain amount of time, the coach has to answer to that. But it sounds like, hypothetically speaking, you'd give Woods 20+ years of bottom ranked defenses and fault the players? Is there ever a point when you'd be like, "Okay, it has been 60 years, I'm 95 years old, Woods is 109 years old, and in these 60 years our players are still not communicating right, so the onus/responsibility ultimately must fall on the coach."

Randolphkeys said:

I don't think I've said allowing third down conversions is perfectly fine. I've said the offenses they faced the past two weeks will make you pay for mental errors of any kind. Dumb defensive penalty? Issues making a tackle? Blown coverage? Damn right a top ten QB will make you pay.

Now let's jump to what Real Deal alluded to - a philosophical change in defense.

If the linebackers are still missing tackles, scheme means nothing.

If defensive tackles are being called for hands to the face, scheme doesn't matter.

Defensive backs run the wrong way?

Doesn't matter which zone a defensive coordinator called.

Execution is not an aspect of the team I plan to brush away at all... I will ask if these young players would make the same mistake for another coordinator. Right now, my answer would be yes.

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I get the reasons. I'm not even calling them excuses.

But I'm saying, if this continues as-is, when does accountability shift to the defensive coordinator for you? If the scheme calls for something our completely Andrew Berry-revamped defense cannot figure out... if the all-mighty and infallible scheme makes all these proven good (JJ3, Ward, Hill) and decent players (Harrison) perform worse than they ever have before, at what point do you decide that something about it has to change?

I know you're optimistic, but it seems as if you haven't truly considered the possibility that things might not work out? Should Berry revamp the defense yet again in the 2022, or 2023 offseason, or find someone that would make this talent and these players perform and deliver a respectable product on the field?

I already said where my line is. I only hope Woods can deliver, because if we're a bottom ranked defense at the end of this year then I'm not sure if he'll be our DC next year.

Randolphkeys said:

Hoyer shouldn't have come up at all, we agree. But I'm not apologizing or taking an "L" on any of my Johnny/Hoyer takes. History is still on my side.

Back to Woods. After the Chargers game he said he would simplify the calls:

Browns defense gets ‘wind knocked out of our sails’ for second straight week

Just like the Chargers a week ago, the Cardinals gave the Browns defense all sorts of trouble on Sunday

www.cleveland.com

After reviewing film last week, Browns defensive coordinator Joe Woods pointed to technique issues and a lack of execution. He thought perhaps too much had been in the game plan against the Chargers, “so we really worked on it this week just in terms of having a tight menu to make sure we can execute.”

So this is a problem - the coverages are still being blown when other layers are simplified. At some point, it's on the players to apply what is learned in the film session.

I'm hoping the mental mistakes end and the layers which decoy the QB return.

Losing JOK is an absolute disaster for what has gone wrong so far at the second level of the defense. I don't know how long it will take to mask his absence.

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You aren't taking an L because you're literally incapable of it from what I've observed over the last decade plus lol

I never argued that Johnny was the right call, I never even brought him up; you created that strawman. Your stance on how we should have stuck with Hoyer long after he was gone and continuing to plant that flag after it was clear he was just a guy was the hill I was referring to.

In all honesty I don't actually give a shit, I just needed some amusement