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Isaac 3 & D Okoro - A Two Way Playing Basketball Savant

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Who is Isaac Okoro's Favorite Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Emperor?

  • Arcadius (if one does not count Constantine as first)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Justinian the Great

    Votes: 9 15.8%

  • Zeno

    Votes: 2 3.5%

  • Heraclius

    Votes: 3 5.3%

  • Basil II, the Bulgar Slayer

    Votes: 6 10.5%

  • Nikephoros II Phokas, the Pale Death of the Saracens

    Votes: 7 12.3%

  • Alexios I Komnenos

    Votes: 4 7.0%

  • John II, the Beautiful Komnenos

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Constantine XI

    Votes: 4 7.0%

  • Jim I Chones, the Magnificent

    Votes: 26 45.6%
  • Total voters
    57
2 For The Brew said:
I haven’t seen anything to indicate Okoro is mentally damaged. Can you cite some instance of this?
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He shuts off offensively for 80 % of a game. His offensive and anything else IQ is just nil. Just look at the stats he put up.
 
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Tonight, you can start to see a role where Okoro is the big gritty guard where he helps on the boards, keeps plays alive, and plays good D, attacks the basket on PnR, and hit an occasional 3. Tonight was his best game this year ny far.
 
What’s most concerning to me is how we almost treat Okoro like he’s a second round pick or something. Applauding him for all the little things he does out there like being pesky on defense and grabbing a few offensive rebounds.

That’s nice and all but this guy is a #5 overall pick. If all he turns out to be is a good defender who’s not big enough to defend more than maybe 2 positions - slower end of PGs to the smaller end of SFs - and a cutter and helper on the offensive rebounds who hits the occasional three. Then we fucked up royally.
 
All4One1ForAll said:
What’s most concerning to me is how we almost treat Okoro like he’s a second round pick or something. Applauding him for all the little things he does out there like being pesky on defense and grabbing a few offensive rebounds.

That’s nice and all but this guy is a #5 overall pick. If all he turns out to be is a good defender who’s not big enough to defend more than maybe 2 positions - slower end of PGs to the smaller end of SFs - and a cutter and helper on the offensive rebounds who hits the occasional three. Then we fucked up royally.
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We fucked up royally.
 
Mr. MacPhisto said:
So who else should have been drafted? Okongwu? Hayes? Would be easy to say Halliburton now, but don’t recall him being talked about at 5. The NBA Draft is not the NFL Draft. A #5 pick doesn’t turn into a stI’d as frequently.
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Mac: don't bother. Approximately 83% of posts on sports message boards like these are 20-20 hindsight takes that blame the FO for not being able to forecast the future perfectly.

We know that a true analysis would look at all of the players available at the position (and who were realistic draft targets -- not the "OMG CAVS FUCKED UP BY NOT TAKING GIANNIS #1 OVERALL IN 2013"-type Monday morning QBing), and then see how all of them performed. That's in contrast to what most MB posters do -- cherry-pick one or two guys taken in the entire rest of the draft who have performed well, and then blame the FO (usually with wild-eyed drama -- "it's a fireable offense!") for not taking them.

If we look at the 2020 Draft, the next few guys taken after Okoro were Okongwu, Hayes, Obi Toppin, Deni Avdija, and Jalen Smith. None of them have been better than Okoro; some have been markedly worse. I wouldn't trade Okoro straight-up for any of those guys today. I doubt that any NBA GM would. Sure, we can go down to 12 and find Haliburton (and Saddiq Bey at 19 has his supporters too). In real time, if the Cavs had taken Haliburton at 5, most of this board would have been pissed ("ANOTHER POINT GUARD??? FIREABLE OFFENSE!"); and if they had taken Bey at 19, some posters here may have actually taken up pitchforks and gone hunting for Koby.

Is Okoro a future star? Doesn't look like it. Is he a bust? Doesn't look like it. Were there better options available? Not realistically. Most of the other players picked after Okoro have been at best equal, and in many cases are off to a demonstrably worse start to their NBA careers. But there's no room for that in the land of hot takes.
 
Mr. MacPhisto said:
So who else should have been drafted? Okongwu? Hayes? Would be easy to say Halliburton now, but don’t recall him being talked about at 5. The NBA Draft is not the NFL Draft. A #5 pick doesn’t turn into a stI’d as frequently.
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Go read the draft thread from that year.
There were lots of rather heated discussions. Hayes didn’t seem like an obvious candidate but Halliburton was absolutely the massive mistake. To me, it was what a bad GM does. Trying to draft for need / fit over taking BPA on a bad team. The opposite of a team that does this is someone like Memphis. Who is just constantly picking off analytical value regardless of position.

Given 3 guards can play, it seemed short sighted in the moment and even worse now that we have seen the results, that we would not just have taken Haliburton and worried about the 3 later. Instead, we kind of compounded the mistake of having two small guards by taking a guy that is too small and too limited to play the 3.

Okoro isn’t useless and he may eventually be a valuable rotational player but he is a huge miss if, a year removed from his top 5 selection, you are already delving in to arguments about how not all top 5 picks are stars.
 
AllforOne said:
Mac: don't bother. Approximately 83% of posts on sports message boards like these are 20-20 hindsight takes that blame the FO for not being able to forecast the future perfectly.

We know that a true analysis would look at all of the players available at the position (and who were realistic draft targets -- not the "OMG CAVS FUCKED UP BY NOT TAKING GIANNIS #1 OVERALL IN 2013"-type Monday morning QBing), and then see how all of them performed. That's in contrast to what most MB posters do -- cherry-pick one or two guys taken in the entire rest of the draft who have performed well, and then blame the FO (usually with wild-eyed drama -- "it's a fireable offense!") for not taking them.

If we look at the 2020 Draft, the next few guys taken after Okoro were Okongwu, Hayes, Obi Toppin, Deni Avdija, and Jalen Smith. None of them have been better than Okoro; some have been markedly worse. I wouldn't trade Okoro straight-up for any of those guys today. I doubt that any NBA GM would. Sure, we can go down to 12 and find Haliburton (and Saddiq Bey at 19 has his supporters too). In real time, if the Cavs had taken Haliburton at 5, most of this board would have been pissed ("ANOTHER POINT GUARD??? FIREABLE OFFENSE!"); and if they had taken Bey at 19, some posters here may have actually taken up pitchforks and gone hunting for Koby.

Is Okoro a future star? Doesn't look like it. Is he a bust? Doesn't look like it. Were there better options available? Not realistically. Most of the other players picked after Okoro have been at best equal, and in many cases are off to a demonstrably worse start to their NBA careers. But there's no room for that in the land of hot takes.
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Yeah. Always ridiculous to look back. There are a few that were puzzling at the time like Waiters and Bennett. I remember wanting Oladipo in 2013 before the draft. Okoro is a much better pick than either of those two. At worst, he’s a defensive guy who can drive the lane at times. He’s also still quite young and sometimes it does take time for players to develop. He also doesn’t need to be crazy good on this roster. Mobley is clearly the anchor.
 
I'mWithDan said:
Go read the draft thread from that year.
There were lots of rather heated discussions. Hayes didn’t seem like an obvious candidate but Halliburton was absolutely the massive mistake. To me, it was what a bad GM does. Trying to draft for need / fit over taking BPA on a bad team. The opposite of a team that does this is someone like Memphis. Who is just constantly picking off analytical value regardless of position.

Given 3 guards can play, it seemed short sighted in the moment and even worse now that we have seen the results, that we would not just have taken Haliburton and worried about the 3 later. Instead, we kind of compounded the mistake of having two small guards by taking a guy that is too small and too limited to play the 3.

Okoro isn’t useless and he may eventually be a valuable rotational player but he is a huge miss if, a year removed from his top 5 selection, you are already delving in to arguments about how not all top 5 picks are stars.
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No one was drafting Halliburton that high. No one. That‘s a BS hindsight take. If Halliburton was so valued, why did so many others pass?

Maybe one guy said we should‘ve taken Halliburton. No one picked in the 5 slots after Okoro has shown much of anything. Saying the Cavs messed up is a BS revisionist take.
 
Mr. MacPhisto said:
No one was drafting Halliburton that high. No one. That‘s a BS hindsight take. If Halliburton was so valued, why did so many others pass?

Maybe one guy said we should‘ve taken Halliburton. No one picked in the 5 slots after Okoro has shown much of anything. Saying the Cavs messed up is a BS revisionist take.
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While I largely agree with you when it comes to too much weight being put into hindsight bias, a quick scan of the first eight or so 2020 mock drafts that came up on Google had Haliburton going in the 6 to 8 range for almost all of them (one outlier has him going #2 overall). Furthermore, not a single one had Okoro going higher than Haliburton. FWIW most of them had us taking Toppin at #5.
 
Mr. MacPhisto said:
No one was drafting Halliburton that high. No one. That‘s a BS hindsight take. If Halliburton was so valued, why did so many others pass?

Maybe one guy said we should‘ve taken Halliburton. No one picked in the 5 slots after Okoro has shown much of anything. Saying the Cavs messed up is a BS revisionist take.
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Your argument is basically why did other bad teams pass on him? What good GM didn’t take him? The Hawks? Who took Okongwu? Who also had one of the better analytical profiles.

Plenty of analysts liked Haliburton a lot.

“2. Sacramento Kings (A). The steal of this draft might be Iowa State point guard Tyrese Haliburton at No. 12.”


“12. Sacramento Kings: PG Tyrese Haliburton, Iowa State

The best prospect available on the board. I love him here for the same reasons I loved him at No. 6 to Atlanta. He can play behind De'Aaron Fox or right next to him. He's 6-5, can play off the ball or as a true point guard. He fills two needs and is the best player on the board. Can't do better than this. Grade: A+“

So in 1 minute, that was the first two results on draft grades from 2020. A guy saying it was the steal of the draft and giving Sacramento the second best draft grade overall. Another saying A+ and talking about Atlanta selecting him a #6.

You view it as revisionist history because it doesn’t fit with what you believe. But the prevailing notion, in a majority of draft grades, was that Haliburton was under drafted and Okoro was over drafted based on team need.
 
He's not a finished product at all. He is the rawest guy we took.

Also he won the game defending Trae. Trae wasn't even passing for an assist at the end of the game, he just wanted it out of his hands to get away from Okoro

May not be worth a #5 pick, but outside of Mobley he is the only good POA defender we have.
 
I'mWithDan said:
Your argument is basically why did other bad teams pass on him? What good GM didn’t take him? The Hawks? Who took Okongwu? Who also had one of the better analytical profiles.

Plenty of analysts liked Haliburton a lot.

“2. Sacramento Kings (A). The steal of this draft might be Iowa State point guard Tyrese Haliburton at No. 12.”


“12. Sacramento Kings: PG Tyrese Haliburton, Iowa State

The best prospect available on the board. I love him here for the same reasons I loved him at No. 6 to Atlanta. He can play behind De'Aaron Fox or right next to him. He's 6-5, can play off the ball or as a true point guard. He fills two needs and is the best player on the board. Can't do better than this. Grade: A+“

So in 1 minute, that was the first two results on draft grades from 2020. A guy saying it was the steal of the draft and giving Sacramento the second best draft grade overall. Another saying A+ and talking about Atlanta selecting him a #6.

You view it as revisionist history because it doesn’t fit with what you believe. But the prevailing notion, in a majority of draft grades, was that Haliburton was under drafted and Okoro was over drafted based on team need.
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You view it as truth because it fits your need to complain.

Mock draft sites are not real NBA scouts. If the guy at CBS is so good, why isn‘t he in a NBA front office? You can pawn it off on bad teams as much as you like, but reality is a lot of teams skipped on Halliburton and likely has reasons and knowledge that no one understood.

Also do you want to acknowledge that Halliburton hasn’t looked as first two games? Do you also want to factor in Halliburton’s defense? While Okoro was not as strong as hoped last year, Halliburton was even worse.

Where would Halliburton have played? Again, there’s a reason why he fell to 12. Other teams were higher on Okoro for his potential. We’ll see, but let’s also see if Halliburton takes a major step back.

Always funny how many guys on message boards think they are smarter than the people that actually run teams and yet I doubt any are actually getting jobs running the team or scouting.

Maybe Okoro will be a long term bust. I also wouldn’t count on Halliburton being a long term stud either. What happens if he falls off in a big way this year? Who are you going to point to then to complain?
 
AllforOne said:
Mac: don't bother. Approximately 83% of posts on sports message boards like these are 20-20 hindsight takes that blame the FO for not being able to forecast the future perfectly.

We know that a true analysis would look at all of the players available at the position (and who were realistic draft targets -- not the "OMG CAVS FUCKED UP BY NOT TAKING GIANNIS #1 OVERALL IN 2013"-type Monday morning QBing), and then see how all of them performed. That's in contrast to what most MB posters do -- cherry-pick one or two guys taken in the entire rest of the draft who have performed well, and then blame the FO (usually with wild-eyed drama -- "it's a fireable offense!") for not taking them.

If we look at the 2020 Draft, the next few guys taken after Okoro were Okongwu, Hayes, Obi Toppin, Deni Avdija, and Jalen Smith. None of them have been better than Okoro; some have been markedly worse. I wouldn't trade Okoro straight-up for any of those guys today. I doubt that any NBA GM would. Sure, we can go down to 12 and find Haliburton (and Saddiq Bey at 19 has his supporters too). In real time, if the Cavs had taken Haliburton at 5, most of this board would have been pissed ("ANOTHER POINT GUARD??? FIREABLE OFFENSE!"); and if they had taken Bey at 19, some posters here may have actually taken up pitchforks and gone hunting for Koby.

Is Okoro a future star? Doesn't look like it. Is he a bust? Doesn't look like it. Were there better options available? Not realistically. Most of the other players picked after Okoro have been at best equal, and in many cases are off to a demonstrably worse start to their NBA careers. But there's no room for that in the land of hot takes.
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Fucking siblings rivalry in here. Way to go at your brother @All4One1ForAll like that. I thought you were the same guy.
 
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