Isaac 3 & D Okoro - A Two Way Playing Basketball Savant

Sir'Dom Pointer said:

Yes, I know.

I hated the KPJ trade, but i'm way over it now.

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Same. I always considered the KPJ trade as an extension of the Allen trade. Cavs ended up with Allen/Mobley. Rockets ended up with KPJ/Green. It will be interesting to see how it pans out..my money is on the Cavs duo.

As far as Okoro I do like his new role coming off the bench to supply energy. He needs to keep aggressively hunting rebounds like he was doing last night. The shot is obviously a work in progress but he did hit a big 3 against the Hawks.

Cavatt said:

He's not a finished product at all. He is the rawest guy we took.

Also he won the game defending Trae. Trae wasn't even passing for an assist at the end of the game, he just wanted it out of his hands to get away from Okoro

May not be worth a #5 pick, but outside of Mobley he is the only good POA defender we have.

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Cav, I'm going to pick on this point - probably unfairly to you, especially since I otherwise agree with your post. It's more of a general point that gets repeated often, and I want to address it.

With that out of the way: the "not worth a #___ pick" argument is one that fans make over and over, and it's one that needs to die a fiery, horrible death.

Drafts do not have an equal amount of talent from year to year. That's especially true at the top. Some years have multiple All-Star/future HOF players; others simply do not. So it's erroneous to assume that the ___ spot should yield a player of a certain quality. In one draft, the #5 overall pick can yield a Dwyane Wade; in another, it's Alex Len.

2020 happened to be a pretty weak draft, and the talent available at #5 wasn't that great (even including St. Tyrese the Overlooked). It's hard to fault the Cavs for not getting a future sure-fire All-Star at #5 when there were none to be had. The Cavs (and every other team) should be judged according to the talent available when they selected, not by the talent that we might wish had been available.

What's certain is that the 3rd pick in the draft is the best pick in the draft.

2016-2021

Jaylen Brown

Jayson Tatum

Luka Doncic

RJ Barrett - SCRATCH THAT

LaMelo Ball

Evan Mobley

AllforOne said:

happened to be a pretty weak draft, and the talent available at #5 wasn't that great (even including St. Tyrese the Overlooked). It's hard to fault the Cavs for not getting a future sure-fire All-Star at #5 when there were none to be had. The Cavs (and every other team) should be judged according to the talent available when they selected, not by the talent that we might wish had been available.

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You are judged by the selection you make, in the tier you made a selection. Is that a fair statement to you?

Now go find the tiers from 2020 and ask if we made the best selection in that tier. If we did not, did we pass on that player? Or was that player already selected?

I agree it is silly to go “Oh, well why didn’t Giannis go #1?!” But it is very fair to ask why GM’s who selected in that tier didn’t take him.

I tend to just not agree with the reasoning for why Okoro was selected first in that third tier of players. Maybe you agree with it. Which is fine. It can be a difference of opinion. I was just pushing back on the notion that TH was this colossal reach, that people only care about now he is good. To me that is really far from the truth.

Sir'Dom Pointer said:

Yes, I know.

I hated the KPJ trade, but i'm way over it now.

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Yup at first I was mad we got rid of him for nothing but thought chemistry was #1 then was mad when he put up #s for the Rockets. But Mobley is so damn franchise changing good that Porter situation means nothing anymore. Mobley probably saved Kobys job or bought him more time.

I'mWithDan said:

You are judged by the selection you make, in the tier you made a selection. Is that a fair statement to you?

Now go find the tiers from 2020 and ask if we made the best selection in that tier. If we did not, did we pass on that player? Or was that player already selected?

I agree it is silly to go “Oh, well why didn’t Giannis go #1?!” But it is very fair to ask why GM’s who selected in that tier didn’t take him.

I tend to just not agree with the reasoning for why Okoro was selected first in that third tier of players. Maybe you agree with it. Which is fine. It can be a difference of opinion. I was just pushing back on the notion that TH was this colossal reach, that people only care about now he is good. To me that is really far from the truth.

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I never said Haliburton was a colossal reach. I'm responding to those who view Okoro as a complete waste of a pick because (a) Haliburton was available and (b) he's had somewhat better numbers to date. (Which he should vis-a-vis Okoro, as an older player with an extra year of college ball.)

Even assuming that Haliburton has the better career (and it's way too early to decide that one), you're saying that the existence of one player (from the same "tier," however that is defined) who is taken later in the draft, and who has a better career, is a reason to call the GM who didn't take him on the carpet. So if Okoro turns out to be the second best out of however-many players in that "tier," that's not good enough. It doesn't matter if he outshines Okongwu, Hayes, Avdija, Toppin, etc. Correct? If so, then ... you're never going have a GM for very long. You'll almost always be able to find a player taken later in the draft who has a better career (even putting aside the guys like Giannis, Draymond Green, and Jimmy Butler who way outperform their draft slots). Should the dude who took Dream #1 for the Rockets be fired because he didn't take Jordan? (As for the dude who took Sam Bowie at #2 for Portland, well, that's a much fairer question.)

The issue is that some here are treating Haliburton as this amazing talent who somehow dropped to #5, and that the Cavs inexplicably passed on him. That's simply not the case. Haliburton would have been one of any number of defensible choices at #5. Okoro was another such choice. So were several others. Most of them have done worse than Okoro to date, and (at least in my mind) none have clearly outshined him to the point of asking "what the hell were the Cavs thinking?"

The Koby Altman Apologist said:

It's actually not. If anything your the one with revisionist history pretending as if Halliburton was never in the conversation as a top 5 pick. He unexpectedly fell to number 12. I remember Steven A Smith vehemently campaigning for the Knicks to draft Halliburton at 8 and was pissed when they passed on him for Obi Toppin. Just type in 2020 Nba mock drafts in google searches and you will find most mock drafts had him in the 4-8 range. But rarely did they have Halliburton slotted to us because we already had Garland and Sexton and KPJ at the time so most mock drafts had us taking Obi Toppin or Deni because of fit.

2020 NBA Mock Draft 3.0: Will LaMelo Ball be the No. 1 pick in the draft?

The 2020 NBA Draft is finally here! Take a look at the newest edition of our 2020 NBA Mock Draft, which is up to date with the latest trades and reports, complete with player comparisons and reasoning as to where each prospect could be selected in the first round.

ca.nba.com

1. Minnesota Timberwolves - LaMelo Ball, Illawarra Hawks (NBL, Australia)​

2. Golden State Warriors - James Wiseman, Memphis​

3. Charlotte Hornets - Anthony Edwards, Georgia​

4. Chicago Bulls - Deni Avdija, Maccabi Tel Aviv (EuroLeague, Israel)​

5. Cleveland Cavaliers - Obi Toppin, Dayton​

6. Atlanta Hawks - Tyrese Haliburton, Iowa State​

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So your best evidence that he was really in the conversation to be a top 5 pick was one mock showing him as the 6th pick?

I think Okoro's development has potential to be a really critical piece for this team moving forward. He is already a very good POA defender and does a great job covering some of the hardest guards in the league (Trae last night, Harden/Kyrie last year). If he can improve just a bit more on offense, with a 35% 3pt shot and more aggression as a cutter and playmaker, he can really super charge the growth spurt of this team.

A lot of these younger 3nD wings recently have started showing more of the dribble pop and playmaking after a few years in the league. Mikal Bridges is a great example of these. Okoro was incredibly raw and is a few years behind them when it comes to his developmental curve since he was drafted younger and has obviously been in the NBA with less time and under much more challenging circumstances. I really think we will see him blossom as an offensive weapon in year 3 and 4 (like Brown and both Butlers did) rather than looking like a finished product at the start of year 2. Really excited to see whats in store for him as time moves on.

If Okoro has a PJ Tucker like career folks here will always think of him as a bust, but it would honestly be a win with the pick. Folks overestimate the odds with lottery picks. For every starter there's a guy that washes out of the league. Outside of the blue chip prospects, the number of which vary from year to year and might be 0, any draft pick that sticks in the league is "good value". Let Isaac just be a guy.

AllforOne said:

Cav, I'm going to pick on this point - probably unfairly to you, especially since I otherwise agree with your post. It's more of a general point that gets repeated often, and I want to address it.

With that out of the way: the "not worth a #___ pick" argument is one that fans make over and over, and it's one that needs to die a fiery, horrible death.

Drafts do not have an equal amount of talent from year to year. That's especially true at the top. Some years have multiple All-Star/future HOF players; others simply do not. So it's erroneous to assume that the ___ spot should yield a player of a certain quality. In one draft, the #5 overall pick can yield a Dwyane Wade; in another, it's Alex Len.

2020 happened to be a pretty weak draft, and the talent available at #5 wasn't that great (even including St. Tyrese the Overlooked). It's hard to fault the Cavs for not getting a future sure-fire All-Star at #5 when there were none to be had. The Cavs (and every other team) should be judged according to the talent available when they selected, not by the talent that we might wish had been available.

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Yeah absolutely. I was trying to provide some context. I like him and I was one of the first to say he was our guy. I have to admit that part of why I liked him is I thought we could swing on him because I believed at the time KPJ was our "offensive playmaking wing". I thought he had the highest upside of remaining guys at that spot.

I'd say before that Vassell, Deni, and Okongwu all had supporters. I think the evenness of the split said something about the talent available.

I acknowledged at the time that if you went by the numbers Haliburton was the pick. IF you just wanted BPA. Imwithdan sort of came around at the end on Haliburton, but even the people who like Haliburton knew the Cavs were not going to pick him, and we all accepted that.

It was seen as a pick between Okongwu, Okoro, Vassell, Deni and Toppin with the last one being peoples fear of drafting a bust because it was the Cavs.

Okoro isn't clearly the best of the bunch, but he might be. Vassell is the sort of what if in my mind. I didn't want him because I thought Windler would play that role.

Losing KPJ AND having Windler hurt another year makes the choice look different in hindsight.

All that said Okoro and Mobley are a crazy defensive duo and were great last night. They are both ahead in my opinion of where I expected defensively.

The Human Q-Tip said:

So your best evidence that he was really in the conversation to be a top 5 pick was one mock showing him as the 6th pick?

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I just pulled up the first result i found on google which was that. Do you want me to post every mock draft from 2020 because I can? But like I said in my post most mocks didn't really link Halliburton to the Cavs because we already had Sexton, Garland and KPJ. But he was rated to go as high as 4th to the Bulls and definitely slotted to go to the Hawks with the 6th pick in most mock drafts.

Kid is fine with the opportunities he’s been given. Could definitely be a bit more assertive but I’d rather he eased in than overdid it. Only 1 TO through 3 games and much better rebounding, shot looks cleaner and that will hopefully bear out over the course of the year. I was 50/50 between him and Deni on draft night. I would trade him for Deni or Halliburton but I was ok with the pick at the time so I’m not gonna crucify Koby for it.

weepinwillow said:

for the record, I'm fine still being the only one on the Okoro train. I think he figures out how to play offense to the tune of 14-17 ppg and becomes a top of the rotation starter. He looks better when the ball isn't stopping in the offense.
Nothing's changed, imo. Needs to develop a reliable jumper.

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I agree, I think he has solid role player ability. It wasnt a strong draft, and Okoro in the right role can be solid. Out of the 4 early lottery picks, he is in last, but all 4 I see contributing for 10 years or so in the NBA, and that just isnt bad. My ceilings:

Mobley = Super star
Garland = borderline all star
Sexton = in the sixth man of year convo
Okoro = solid rotational player as 4th/5th starter at SG or 2nd or 3rd wing/guard of bench.

Lee said:

I agree, I think he has solid role player ability. It wasnt a strong draft, and Okoro in the right role can be solid. Out of the 4 early lottery picks, he is in last, but all 4 I see contributing for 10 years or so in the NBA, and that just isnt bad. My ceilings:

Mobley = Super star
Garland = borderline all star
Sexton = in the sixth man of year convo
Okoro = solid rotational player as 4th/5th starter at SG or 2nd or 3rd wing/guard of bench.

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My ceiling is higher.. it depends on his jumper developing enough, but if you keep making the right plays, the game tends to reward you. Other than passing on a shot for a better shot, Okoro normally makes the right play.

Cavs run their offense through Garland/Allen PnR's, or Sexton/Mobley, or Rubio/Laurie or some combination thereof, and then they run it through Mobley in the post some (would like more of this). I don't think we want to run Isaac in a bunch of isolations yet as there is no need. We haven't been struggling to score by and large, we've been struggling to defend.

I don't think he is ever going to be a knock down 3 point shooter because he basically didn't
improve his shot at all this summer, unless he tried to change his form and it didn't work for him and needs to get more shooting coaching or whatever and the misses are more a sign of major changes instead of not working on it.
Overall I like him as a eventual secondary ball handler maybe sooner than later off the bench, but he has to add some kind of pull up jumper or he is going to fall out of favor after this season imo