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Koby Altman nailed, then failed to take breathalyzer…

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Did Koby Altman nail the rebuild?

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    65
gambler said:
essentially gave up?

big difference between the words essentially and arguably

markennan put up mvp dirk numbers last year. if he can do it again next year after teams have an entire off season to break down the tape then the cavaliers have arguably traded prime dirk nowitki along with three first round picks, first round pick agbaji and the rights to colin sexton(first round pick) for donovan mitchell


if mark puts up two consecutive years of 25/9 on 50/40/87 splits...you dont think that there are going to be arguments being made comparing lauri to prime dirk who put up 23/9 on 48/36/88 splits one year after his mvp season?

even if the jazz dont make the playoffs?

ok....

and who did prime dirk have running the floor with him and who does mark currently have?
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Is this because they are both tall white guys? So was bargs
 
MirORich said:
There no reason to believe those picks will be anything other than in the 20’s

Is their risk involved? Sure. But this is not a team of talent maxed out 32 years olds about to decline.

It’s a very young, very talented team that needs to continue to grow together while adding/developing talent/depth around the key guys
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Having control of your own draft picks is just helpful to a team. A injury or other unforseen event just allows a team to take to tank then build a much better asset to move to better the team. It's basically the decision that the Mavs did this year, they a real late tank to hopefully keep their pick and it will allow them to make moves around Luka and maybe Kyrie this offseason.

The problem I had with pushing in the chips for Mitchell was the timing. Mobley hadn't ascended to the necessary level to make an all in type deal. I've always thought trying to push all in too early is how alot of teams get into trouble. You need to know what types of players your young star players mesh with and the style of play that will fit them. We really don't know what style of play will be best for Mobley and Garland. Getting the player with the most potential so late in our rebuild process might actually hurt our rebuild process because the organization got anxious to compete right away.

Our 2021-2022 roster was just good variety of players to figure out what works and to flush out styles of play. We really didn't need to box ourselves in.
 
inliner311 said:
Having control of your own draft picks is just helpful to a team. A injury or other unforseen event just allows a team to take to tank then build a much better asset to move to better the team. It's basically the decision that the Mavs did this year, they a real late tank to hopefully keep their pick and it will allow them to make moves around Luka and maybe Kyrie this offseason.

The problem I had with pushing in the chips for Mitchell was the timing. Mobley hadn't ascended to the necessary level to make an all in type deal. I've always thought trying to push all in too early is how alot of teams get into trouble. You need to know what types of players your young star players mesh with and the style of play that will fit them. We really don't know what style of play will be best for Mobley and Garland. Getting the player with the most potential so late in our rebuild process might actually hurt our rebuild process because the organization got anxious to compete right away.

Our 2021-2022 roster was just good variety of players to figure out what works and to flush out styles of play. We really didn't need to box ourselves in.
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Mitchell is 26. It was on the early end of the timeline to do what you’re calling an all in move but only problematic to me if the guy we traded for was 28-29+

It goes without saying that whether Mitchell extend/re-signs here, is crucial for extracting maximum value out of the trade.
 
inliner311 said:
Having control of your own draft picks is just helpful to a team. A injury or other unforseen event just allows a team to take to tank then build a much better asset to move to better the team. It's basically the decision that the Mavs did this year, they a real late tank to hopefully keep their pick and it will allow them to make moves around Luka and maybe Kyrie this offseason.

The problem I had with pushing in the chips for Mitchell was the timing. Mobley hadn't ascended to the necessary level to make an all in type deal. I've always thought trying to push all in too early is how alot of teams get into trouble. You need to know what types of players your young star players mesh with and the style of play that will fit them. We really don't know what style of play will be best for Mobley and Garland. Getting the player with the most potential so late in our rebuild process might actually hurt our rebuild process because the organization got anxious to compete right away.

Our 2021-2022 roster was just good variety of players to figure out what works and to flush out styles of play. We really didn't need to box ourselves in.
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The problem with waiting for ideal timing and roster fit is that it may never happen.

It's not so easy to add very good players to your team. Did the Cavaliers add one player as good as Mitchell from 2003-10?

Only ten players made the top two all NBA teams. There are thirty teams looking for very good players. We acquired one of those ten in a trade. Koby finished runner up Exec of the year and we have people wanting him fired.
 
2 For The Brew said:
The problem with waiting for ideal timing and roster fit is that it may never happen.

It's not so easy to add very good players to your team. Did the Cavaliers add one player as good as Mitchell from 2003-10?
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Exactly. You can’t just go down to the All-Star Store and pick up a SF whenever you like.

The flip side of this coin is that if Koby hadn’t made the Spida trade - and especially if it became known that he lost out to the Knicks or whoever - the same voices would be whining about Koby “not being able to pull the trigger” on a big trade.

The single message from some fans is that no matter what the team does, they’re fucked. (Which then begs the question of why follow the team in the first place, but that’s really for a trained professional to dive into.)
 
CavsKermit said:
Well, there were only two teams even really willing to discuss the trade with Ainge at that point, and the Knicks were pulling pieces off the table because they felt as though they has already offered too much. So I feel pretty comfortable saying that every GM but Altman wouldn't have made that trade.

Compare what Ainge gave up to acquire Kyrie with what Altman gave up to get Mitchell.
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DM is the more valuable player.
 
AllforOne said:
Exactly. You can’t just go down to the All-Star Store and pick up a SF whenever you like.

The flip side of this coin is that if Koby hadn’t made the Spida trade - and especially if it became known that he lost out to the Knicks or whoever - the same voices would be whining about Koby “not being able to pull the trigger” on a big trade.

The single message from some fans is that no matter what the team does, they’re fucked. (Which then begs the question of why follow the team in the first place, but that’s really for a trained professional to dive into.)
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It's the same with people still whining occasionally about the Kyrie trade. That Brooklyn pick was projected at the time to be much higher than 8th (based on Vegas wins for the Nets and what looked like a crappy team). We fell just short of being able to grab Doncic.

There are no sure things in sports. The very best GMs miss on picks and trades while sometimes an idiot finds an acorn.

Who predicted Ja would be in this mess?

I don't believe in predictability or control. Life doesn't work like that. You play the odds and place your bets but outcomes are never guaranteed.

What is inevitable are setbacks and disappointments. 29 out of 30 teams have this every year to varying degrees. We made progress this past season but the playoffs sucked and we're all pissed. Ok. Our GM, coach and players have summer assignments. Let's see how it goes over the next year.
 
AllforOne said:
Also, Kyrie was not healthy. He had knee issues down the stretch and was known to need another knee surgery (which he eventually had to end his first season with the Celtics).
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Kyrie's trade demand also raised the issue of exactly how much of a team player he really was. I imagine that was a significant factor when teams were looking at what they were willing to give up in trade.

Also, the entire league got to see what a Kyrie-led Cavs team looked like -- both pre-LBJ and in those games in which LBJ didn't play -- and it was not pretty. His individual talent was clear, but whether that individual talent translated fully into team wins was definitely up in the air.
 
The Human Q-Tip said:
Kyrie's trade demand also raised the issue of exactly how much of a team player he really was. I imagine that was a significant factor when teams were looking at what they were willing to give up in trade.

Also, the entire league got to see what a Kyrie-led Cavs team looked like -- both pre-LBJ and in those games in which LBJ didn't play -- and it was not pretty. His individual talent was clear, but whether that individual talent translated fully into team wins was definitely up in the air.
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Would have been an Allen Iverson situation at best.
 
Ohioplayer00 said:
Wait…..just to clarify. You think Danny Anige was going to send us a 26 point a game All Star for Okoro, Wade and Cedi (three of our most inconsistent shooters) and three FRPs?
Is that what you are saying?
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No. Hence the *or* and *instead*. Instead of Agbaji.
 
MirORich said:
And is it that bad if we are a perennial playoff team either?

Hopefully people appreciate just how rare one championship is. For every Warriors or Heat(3 titles in 8 years), most NBA franchises go years or even decades without reaching a conference finals, let alone NBA finals.

There are teams that are stuck in the lottery for 5/8/10 years.

Even the sexy, Process like gazillion draft pick Burks after ZERO guarantees.

OKC drafted three hall of Famers in b2b2b drafts and reached the finals once, losing.

The Philly “Process”, has yet to yield a ECF appearance.

The current OKC build looks sexy as hell but there are still no guarantees that they get the right combination of players that will equal a championship.

So people should be a little less harsh on the idea that maybe the best we get from the Garland/Mobley/Mitchell era is being a perennial playoff participant. Of course we want more and we should aim higher, but historical odds are against us and 80% of the franchises in any given year.
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Sorry, but if you're fortunate enough to draft Garland and Mobley, and you have all your picks and cap space to shape your roster, and your ceiling is just a playoff team, that's an L. That's even more the case if you already have Allen before you draft Mobley.
 
CavsKermit said:
Sorry, but if you're fortunate enough to draft Garland and Mobley, and you have all your picks and cap space to shape your roster, and your ceiling is just a playoff team, that's an L. That's even more the case if you already have Allen before you draft Mobley.
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Are you under the impression that Garland and Mobley are generational talents?

in what world do drafting those to absolutely equal ECF/Finals appearance

Newsflash: there’s lots of other good players and teams, lots of injuries, luck, and other factors that make winning a title super damn hard.

Second newsflash: you have to be a perennial playoff participant to even have a chance to get to the ECF or NBA Finals. I did nkt say their ceiling was below ECF. I just said that it’s damn hard in the NBA to get to the finals let alone win it. There are for worse things than being really good(and I mean much better than we are currently) but not able to win a title or win an ECF.

That’s not a call for permanent stasis or to not do your damnedest to improve. To not try different coaches. But it’s just a fact that the majority of NBA teams and players will not win a title in any given 20 year period and I would much rather be a perennial winner than a perennial lottery team.
 
Suddenly everyone sees Garland et all for what they are. Didn’t take that long.
 
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