2012-2013 Data up on 82games.com

[Tornicade]

I don't need advanced metrics after 8 games to tell me that "Casspi's incompetence" is definitely not exagerrated. The guy is flat out terrible. No exaggeration necessary to prove that point. Turn the tv on, watch the game, and that will be all the proof you need.

The thing with TT is pretty funny, too. I'm not sure how these stats support him being some huge plus defender when I watch games against teams with competent FC players pretty much do whatever they want with him. WAS sucks and their best FC player was hurt, so that was a nice stat padding game for him. Boozer had his way, going 7/11 with 19. MIL's FC is terrible and they rely heavily on BC scoring anyways. Blake Griffin had his way all night, going 9/14 for 20. Same with David Lee(10/16 22pts). He did a decent job on Scola, but the G's took that game over so Scola really wasn't even looking for his offense that much. Ibaka had an average game offensively(5/11 for 14), but we all know OKC is far and away a perimeter oriented team with KD, Russ, and KMart. The last game he went up against Kris Humphries, who can put up decent numbers now and then when on a bad team, but this team is far from the old Nyets, and Humphries is an afterthought. Yet, he did manage 4/5 for 12pts nonetheless.

This league is largely a perimeter oriented game nowadays. It doesn't help that, with that style, we have some pretty piss poor D from our PG and maybe average at best from our rook SG. A lot of teams don't even have a decent scoring PF, but the ones that do sure don't seem to be slowed by Tristan Thompson.

good thing because the advanced metrics say it is grossly exagerrated and also that he is a better option at the three. Im not sure how you can really advocate miles in front of Casspi since that is really the only other option.

are you saying miles is a better option at the three? someones got to play it. your other options are , Samuels, or boobie.

Casspies been on the floor a total of 34 minutes.

In that 34 minutes he has been the 2nd most efficient rebounder on the team so even if he struggles offensively he is still helping the team get touches.

Get him time he will improve. this was the context he was mentioned so perhaps it would be great to see you reply in the context.


Also in regards to the power forward position. they arent the greatest numbers but they are below a 50% efg. so now matter how bad your opinion of thompson is as far as him sucking defensively. its much worse from the guards.
and if you think that opponents efg is normal or a product of perimeter based offenses it is far from normal and overall the worst in the league.

The cavs first goal is to reduce the ifg percentage of their opponents guards which I challenge you to find any other team giving up such a rate from their back court. that will take a huge step in reducing opposing teams fg% which is just horrendous

 

[Giambiwannabe7]

good thing because the advanced metrics say it is grossly exagerrated and also that he is a better option at the three. Im not sure how you can really advocate miles in front of Casspi since that is really the only other option.

are you saying miles is a better option at the three? someones got to play it. your other options are , Samuels, or boobie.

Casspies been on the floor a total of 34 minutes.

In that 34 minutes he has been the 2nd most efficient rebounder on the team so even if he struggles offensively he is still helping the team get touches.

Get him time he will improve. this was the context he was mentioned so perhaps it would be great to see you reply in the context.


Also in regards to the power forward position. they arent the greatest numbers but they are below a 50% efg. so now matter how bad your opinion of thompson is as far as him sucking defensively. its much worse from the guards.
and if you think that opponents efg is normal or a product of perimeter based offenses it is far from normal and overall the worst in the league.

The cavs first goal is to reduce the ifg percentage of their opponents guards which I challenge you to find any other team giving up such a rate from their back court. that will take a huge step in reducing opposing teams fg% which is just horrendous

Where are you coming up with this stuff? Where did I ever say that I advocate Cj Miles? I simply said Casspi is incompetant. If some stat is telling you he isn't, well it's a lie. He's terrible. 34 minutes tells you he's the second most efficient rebounder? Well, let me just wipe the confetti from my keyboard. Garbage stat, dude. Garbage. The sample is too small and his supposed contributions are near meaningless considering all of his other piss poor areas of play. I'm the guy who was begging for Batum as our starter so Gee could go back to the bench. But, since that isn't an option, you go with what you have. You go small, you go big, and yes sometimes you even go Assfingers. Just don't sell me some garbage crap stat telling me he isn't terrible.

And I very well stated our G play is piss poor and average for a rook. I even took it a step further and said, combined with all the great perimeter play nowadays, it's a double whammy. We are, on most nights, putting our weakest defenders against the other teams best players.

I also stated, very clearly and with numerous examples, how TT's D going up against anyone other than some scrubs, has been subpar. The only game we've played a team with a good PF that he actually did good in was vs Scola. And he wasn't even looking for his shot a whole lot because Dragic and Brown were killing us. We've played 8 games. In 4 games against teams with above average PF's(CHI, LAC, GSW, OKC), and one against Humphries, the oppossing PF's are a combined 35-57 for a torrid 61%!!!! He has 2 blocks and 13 blocks against him on the season!! Put that in your stat pipe and smoke it!

And why the hell would you challenge me to find another team giving up a higher rate of ifg than ours? Where was I trumpeting our great G play on defense?

 

[Tornicade]

Where are you coming up with this stuff? Where did I ever say that I advocate Cj Miles? I simply said Casspi is incompetant. If some stat is telling you he isn't, well it's a lie. He's terrible. 34 minutes tells you he's the second most efficient rebounder? Well, let me just wipe the confetti from my keyboard. Garbage stat, dude. Garbage. The sample is too small and his supposed contributions are near meaningless considering all of his other piss poor areas of play. I'm the guy who was begging for Batum as our starter so Gee could go back to the bench. But, since that isn't an option, you go with what you have. You go small, you go big, and yes sometimes you even go Assfingers. Just don't sell me some garbage crap stat telling me he isn't terrible.

And I very well stated our G play is piss poor and average for a rook. I even took it a step further and said, combined with all the great perimeter play nowadays, it's a double whammy. We are, on most nights, putting our weakest defenders against the other teams best players.

I also stated, very clearly and with numerous examples, how TT's D going up against anyone other than some scrubs, has been subpar. The only game we've played a team with a good PF that he actually did good in was vs Scola. And he wasn't even looking for his shot a whole lot because Dragic and Brown were killing us. We've played 8 games. In 4 games against teams with above average PF's(CHI, LAC, GSW, OKC), and one against Humphries, the oppossing PF's are a combined 35-57 for a torrid 61%!!!! He has 2 blocks and 13 blocks against him on the season!! Put that in your stat pipe and smoke it!

And why the hell would you challenge me to find another team giving up a higher rate of ifg than ours? Where was I trumpeting our great G play on defense?

Joe when you reply to someone disputing what they said. and it certainly did appear that way since you reponded to comments specifically in my post . then unless you state otherwise your responding to the context of the post.

my post said Casspi was the best option as back up small for this team right now and that miles just isnt working

you then responded the Casspi is horrible....

so your implying my assertions are wrong because he is horrible.


I dont think your a troll so who on the roster would be a more viable option as the back up small forward for this team right now?

ill say it again Casspi is the best option for the bench as a backup small forward. if you disagree with that. thats fine. please tell me who is. whether he is on the roster. a current free agent or some guy from the d league.

 

[Giambiwannabe7]

Joe when you reply to someone disputing what they said. and it certainly did appear that way since you reponded to comments specifically in my post . then unless you state otherwise your responding to the context of the post.

my post said Casspi was the best option as back up small for this team right now and that miles just isnt working

you then responded the Casspi is horrible....

so your implying my assertions are wrong because he is horrible.


I dont think your a troll so who on the roster would be a more viable option as the back up small forward for this team right now?

ill say it again Casspi is the best option for the bench as a backup small forward. if you disagree with that. thats fine. please tell me who is. whether he is on the roster. a current free agent or some guy from the d league.

I disagreed with the general context of the post's validity as it relates to some success TT is having vs other PF's, and I strongly disagree with any notion that attempts to refute Casspi's said competence, or lack thereof. I never said, or even implied, that we have any better options. You said Casspi's incompetence is exagerrated and that's what I disagree with. Period. Even the biggest Casspi supporters have all but lost hope at this point. You can't take a stat from a guy who has played 34 minutes all season and apply that in any meaningful way without skipping a boatload of steps in between. Your justifying him being the team's 2nd most efficient rebounder when he's played less all season than many of these guys have played in one game. Do you not see the fundamental flaw in this? Come on, man. I'm not trolling, but I'm always critical of stats, and this one definitely doesn't pass the smell test.

If all you meant to say is Casspi is the best option off the bench at SF, then I'd have a hard time disagreeing. But, that's not how it looked on my screen. It says more about the rest of our other options than it does for anything Casspi has done. Just because he's most likely our best option right now doesn't mean he is competent and well deserving of the Assfingers nickname. The two things are mutually exclusive.

 

[Nathan S]

The success of the starting lineup (http://www.82games.com/1213/1213CLE2.HTM) has been criminally neglected thusfar. They're scoring 1.16 points per possession and allowing only 0.96, both incredible rates, in 120 minutes of playing time. Needless to say, because of its bizarre efficiency and the frequency with which the Cavs use it, this unit leads the league in +/- by a wide margin: http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=5&season=22012&split=9&team=

The win/loss numbers may have been sabotaged by the bench, but that shouldn't take away from what has been a very encouraging start for the guys who actually matter to this team.

 

[The Process God]

The success of the starting lineup (http://www.82games.com/1213/1213CLE2.HTM) has been criminally neglected thusfar. They're scoring 1.16 points per possession and allowing only 0.96, both incredible rates, in 120 minutes of playing time. Needless to say, because of its bizarre efficiency and the frequency with which the Cavs use it, this unit leads the league in +/- by a wide margin: http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=5&season=22012&split=9&team=

The win/loss numbers may have been sabotaged by the bench, but that shouldn't take away from what has been a very encouraging start for the guys who actually matter to this team.

We just need to keep up the tanking job for the rest of the season, and we'll truly be onto the next stage of the rebuild, and that is how we're going to use our assets now that we've collected a crap ton of them.

 

[jvpertz]

The success of the starting lineup (http://www.82games.com/1213/1213CLE2.HTM) has been criminally neglected thusfar. They're scoring 1.16 points per possession and allowing only 0.96, both incredible rates, in 120 minutes of playing time. Needless to say, because of its bizarre efficiency and the frequency with which the Cavs use it, this unit leads the league in +/- by a wide margin: http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=5&season=22012&split=9&team=

The win/loss numbers may have been sabotaged by the bench, but that shouldn't take away from what has been a very encouraging start for the guys who actually matter to this team.

That is an incredible stat.

If we had any sign of a bench.....We could easily be a four-five seed in the East. However, when your bench is comprised of guys who probably wouldnt sniff any playing time and possibly a roster spot on ninety five percent of the teams in the league, then you have problems.

Maybe we should stop worrying about finding another superstar and start worrying about finding other real NBA players to compliment the starting lineup.

2-6 teams shouldnt have a starting lineup that good.

It tells me that we have a TERRIBLE coach and one of the worst 2nd units in NBA history.

 

[The Process God]

That is an incredible stat.

If we had any sign of a bench.....We could easily be a four-five seed in the East. However, when your bench is comprised of guys who probably wouldnt sniff any playing time and possibly a roster spot on ninety five percent of the teams in the league, then you have problems.

Maybe we should stop worrying about finding another superstar and start worrying about finding other real NBA players to compliment the starting lineup.

2-6 teams shouldnt have a starting lineup that good.

It tells me that we have a TERRIBLE coach and one of the worst 2nd units in NBA history.

If you're looking through the lens of what the FO's goal is right now, all that stat shows is that we have an incredibly bright future while still tanking at a high level. If we were to start surrounding our team with solid bench guys, you might as well rename us the Cleveland Hawks or the Atlanta Cavaliers. We are tanking for that next superstar because we know that is what it will take in today's league in order to win a championship. It is only after we gain that next piece that we will move onto filling out the rest of the team. Until then, we will intentionally suck through how our FO formulates our team (mainly our bench).j

Fucking genius, I tell you.

 

[Tornicade]

with all the fuss about the Cavs starting lineup +/- I decided to take a look at the regular season ratings for last year.

Team	Players			Min	Poss For	Poss Opp	Pts For	Pts Opp	Off Rtg	Def Rtg	Overall Rtg
SAS	Neal, Gary - Green, Danny - Anderson, James - Bonner, Matt - Splitter, Tiago (unit)			31.83	58	59	79	46	136.21	77.97	58.24
MIA	Chalmers, Mario - Battier, Shane - James, LeBron - Turiaf, Ronny - Bosh, Chris (unit)			33.43	62	62	82	48	132.26	77.42	54.84
GSW	Curry, Stephen - Ellis, Monta - Rush, Brandon - Lee, David - Udoh, Ekpe (unit)			64.77	119	116	163	106	136.98	91.38	45.60
DAL	Kidd, Jason - Terry, Jason - Carter, Vince - Nowitzki, Dirk - Wright, Brandan (unit)			38.48	79	70	112	68	141.77	97.14	44.63
UTA	Harris, Devin - Hayward, Gordon - Millsap, Paul - Favors, Derrick - Jefferson, Al (unit)			65.20	122	120	148	97	121.31	80.83	40.48
SAS	Parker, Tony - Neal, Gary - Leonard, Kawhi - Bonner, Matt - Duncan, Tim (unit)			31.80	58	59	69	47	118.97	79.66	39.30
MIN	Barea, Jose - Webster, Martell - Beasley, Michael - Williams, Derrick - Milicic, Darko (unit)			33.28	57	59	78	59	136.84	100.00	36.84
DEN	Lawson, Ty - Miller, Andre - Gallinari, Danilo - Harrington, Al - Hilario, Nene (unit)			44.57	87	87	110	79	126.44	90.80	35.63
PHI	Williams, Louis - Turner, Evan - Iguodala, Andre - Young, Thaddeus - Hawes, Spencer (unit)			54.22	102	100	134	96	131.37	96.00	35.37
CHI	Lucas, John - Korver, Kyle - Deng, Luol - Gibson, Taj - Asik, Omer (unit)			148.48	255	258	285	200	111.77	77.52	34.25
CHI	Lucas, John - Korver, Kyle - Deng, Luol - Boozer, Carlos - Noah, Joakim (unit)			42.47	77	76	96	69	124.68	90.79	33.89
POR	Felton, Raymond - Matthews, Wes - Batum, Nicolas - Aldridge, LaMarcus - Hickson, J.J. (unit)			68.18	128	127	172	128	134.38	100.79	33.59
OKC	Fisher, Derek - Westbrook, Russell - Harden, James - Durant, Kevin - Collison, Nick (unit)			57.12	107	112	148	119	138.32	106.25	32.07
HOU	Dragic, Goran - Lowry, Kyle - Lee, Courtney - Parsons, Chandler - Patterson, Patrick (unit)			35.37	63	63	70	51	111.11	80.95	30.16
CLE	Irving, Kyrie - Sessions, Ramon - Gee, Alonzo - Jamison, Antawn - Varejao, Anderson (unit)			33.00	64	65	88	70	137.50	107.69	29.81

<tbody>
</tbody>

http://basketballvalue.com/glossary.php

as you can see alot of these lineups are a mixture of back ups and starters.

here is the top units for cleveland last year with over 100 minutes.

Team	Players			Min	Poss For	Poss Opp	Pts For	Pts Opp	Off Rtg	Def Rtg	Overall Rtg
CLE	Irving, Kyrie - Parker, Anthony - Casspi, Omri - Jamison, Antawn - Varejao, Anderson (unit)			297.40	574	580	604	633	105.23	109.14	-3.91
CLE	Irving, Kyrie - Parker, Anthony - Gee, Alonzo - Jamison, Antawn - Thompson, Tristan (unit)			181.12	335	337	378	399	112.84	118.40	-5.56
CLE	Irving, Kyrie - Parker, Anthony - Gee, Alonzo - Jamison, Antawn - Hollins, Ryan (unit)			108.55	215	216	230	225	106.98	104.17	2.81
CLE	Sloan, Donald - Parker, Anthony - Gee, Alonzo - Jamison, Antawn - Thompson, Tristan (unit)			105.98	205	201	193	221	94.15	109.95	-15.80
CLE	Sessions, Ramon - Gibson, Daniel - Gee, Alonzo - Thompson, Tristan - Samuels, Samardo (unit)			101.45	193	194	179	182	92.75	93.81	-1.07

<tbody>
</tbody>

Hopefully they will update the site soon with 2013 units

 

[MYoung23]

82games and +/- hasnt been relevant on this site in years and all of sudden people are pulling this shit out like it's 2005.

 

[Tornicade]

82games and +/- hasnt been relevant on this site in years and all of sudden people are pulling this shit out like it's 2005.

My past use of 82 games has underwent alot of srutiny. I always took the time to address attempts to debunk the stats and express the importance of context. now its mainstream again as people have taken the time to understand it.

really though after 2005 the Cavs were year to year contender on the championship or bust mode. people didnt really care about trends and such because all that mattered was 2 or 3 playoff series. A young team on the build and people are looking for ways to measure progress. 82games is a great source of information to reflect that if taken in context.

 

[Jon]

with all the fuss about the Cavs starting lineup +/- I decided to take a look at the regular season ratings for last year.

Unless you're trying to demonstrate that our early season success may be just a statistical glitch (and it may be), you should limit your table to groups with 100+ minutes. You'd also want to separate starting groups from bench groups.

Even so, 82games data should always be evaluated within the context of the team, and it's easy to accept what it's telling us when it's obvious the bench sucks so much.

But consider, that the total suckitude of our bench may be over-inflating the strength of our starters:

Consider that by the time our bench is done letting the other team build a 20 pt lead on us, that they may naturally let up on the gas and coast as long as they can maintain that lead. They may not be giving an "A" effort to slow our starters because they don't need to.

Anyway, 82games data has always been used on this board... just because some members choose to dismiss it, doesn't mean it's not useful.

 

[Jon]

My past use of 82 games has underwent alot of srutiny. I always took the time to address attempts to debunk the stats and express the importance of context. now its mainstream again as people have taken the time to understand it.

Context is very important. I'm not sure it's "mainsteam" so much as people love a stat when it shows something they agree with, but there is a terminology wall that more and more fans are hopefully overcoming. Unless one is familiar with the site and how they present the data and what it all means, it's just a bunch of numbers.

really though after 2005 the Cavs were year to year contender on the championship or bust mode. people didnt really care about trends and such because all that mattered was 2 or 3 playoff series. A young team on the build and people are looking for ways to measure progress. 82games is a great source of information to reflect that if taken in context.

You only joined in 2011. I've personally used the data constantly to illustrate many of my points. The data showed Andy was good, and Drew was crap; it showed that Gibson was turrible on D initially but he improved with experience. It showed that JJ could single-handedly drag down almost any unit he was part of. It showed that James surpassed everyone as the most clutch player in the league years ago. It goes on and on.

 

[Tornicade]

Context is very important. I'm not sure it's "mainsteam" so much as people love a stat when it shows something they agree with, but there is a terminology wall that more and more fans are hopefully overcoming. Unless one is familiar with the site and how they present the data and what it all means, it's just a bunch of numbers.



You only joined in 2011. I've personally used the data constantly to illustrate many of my points. The data showed Andy was good, and Drew was crap; it showed that Gibson was turrible on D initially but he improved with experience. It showed that JJ could single-handedly drag down almost any unit he was part of. It showed that James surpassed everyone as the most clutch player in the league years ago. It goes on and on.

yes ive only been here since may of 2011. Which is why I chose only to speak for myself ibecause I wasnt here from 2005-2011 to agree or dispute myoungs claim. Which essentially was his way to dismiss the stats in a general broad fashion like he enjoys doing from time to time.

guys like d wreck and others bring up good points about logging accuracy and table formulation and defensive assignment switches that could impact the total we see. This allows me and others to factor in those type of discrepencies when presenting or debating information.

right now Tristan is trending a more efficient jump shot than last year. It could certainly trend the other way over the next ten games

sometimes depending on the context. the small samples do merit discussion

yes I do agree some numbers can create false conclusions or excitement. like the Starting line having the highest +/- . while it bodes well for the youth long term. it does not say this is the best line in the NBA. Only that they had a good start productin wise.. however the opponent efg shows that unless its addressed it wont be something the starting unit can maintain.

Although some of the more higher basketball Iq posters disdain these measurements as they might question the accuracy of their observations. more often than not I have found the statistics to support their analysis. Which is why I always enjoy when myoung, richfield give detailed breakdowns because more often than not statisticall analysis will actually support their analysis even when they dont necessarily match their conclusions.

 

[Jon]

Which essentially was his way to dismiss the stats in a general broad fashion like he enjoys doing from time to time.

Some are going to do that, but it's their loss. There all types on the board. Some who just don't like stats, and others who understand them fine - but just dismiss results when the sample size is too small.

Personally, I look for patterns ... and even insufficient stats help to demonstrate a pattern.