2020 College Football Season/Playoff Thread

[The Human Q-Tip]

1. I agree that its a bit about the hypocrisy of being able to test for your cash cow (football), while not ponying up the testing for students as well.

I just want to point out that football is the "cash cow" for some schools with respect to their athletic programs only. But that stuff is absolutely dwarfed by the primary function and purpose of the university, and by all the money that comes and things that have absolutely nothing to do with football, or with athletics at all. Just to put that in perspective, there are what, 100 guys on the Ohio State football team? There are nearly 8,000 in the School of Engineering alone.

Also, it's not a question just of "ponying up" money to pay for all students to be tested every day, or even more often than that. It is 1) the logistical impossibility of testing all students (and ensuring that each and every student has in fact been tested every day) in the manner being suggested for football players, and 2) the fact that colleges themselves are not a bubble. And as long as those athletes are part of that college, a bubble isn't possible.

2. Undeniably, the dynamic changed only after players decided to organize and voice their very legitimate demands about health and safety protocols, prompting this response from the administrators. The causation case seems crystal clear here.

Again, I have no doubt that if the players were demanding preferential health-related treatment in excess of what the universities could ensure for other students, then that could well have been a major factor in the schools' decisions. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

3. The NFL isn't in a "bubble," like the NBA or NHL teams are. But they should be able to stand up a similar set up, given the dollars at stake and the desire for kids to try.

Well of course! I mean, who wouldn't want to have their health care concerns treated as far more important than everyone else's? So of course players and coaches are willing to to get preferential treatment over other students as a condition precedent for playing. But it also should be obvious that the schools themselves and other parents don't have the same priorities in terms of treating the lives of certain athletes as being more important than everyone else's.

As for the dollars at stake...those dollars would all be going to the schools themselves anyway, which is a practice you've condemned. Assuming the schools themselves are willing to give up those dollars rather than value the health/lives of some students over others, that shouldn't be an issue because they're only hurting themselves anyway.

 

[Hurl Bruce]

 

[AZ_]

I just want to point out that football is the "cash cow" for some schools with respect to their athletic programs only. But that stuff is absolutely dwarfed by the primary function and purpose of the university, and by all the money that comes and things that have absolutely nothing to do with football, or with athletics at all.

Also, it's not a question just of "ponying up" money to pay for all students to be tested every day, or even more often than that. It is 1) the logistical impossibility of testing all students (and ensuring that each and every student has in fact been tested every day) in the manner being suggested for football players, and 2) the fact that colleges themselves are not a bubble. And as long as those athletes are part of that college, a bubble isn't possible.

Its a logistical impossibility to test all students, because of our country's failures to mitigate and contain this virus the way other country's have, sure.

In total agreement with you there.

But they're not as afraid of that hypocrisy as they are allowing student athletes to organize. Once again, they knew when they released the schedule LAST WEEK that they'd be testing these athletes regularly.

Nothing changed, except the players demands and organization.

Again, I have no doubt that if the players were demanding preferential health-related treatment in excess of what the universities could ensure for other students, then that could well have been the precipitating factor in the schools' decisions.

Is it preferential? You're asking them to do things other students don't because it makes your university money.

I'd call that fair and equitable treatment for services provided.

Well of course! I mean, who wouldn't want to have their health care concerns treated as far more important than everyone else's? So of course players and coaches are willing to to get preferential treatment over other students as a condition precedent for playing. But it also should be obvious that the schools themselves and other parents may not have quite the same interests in treating the lives of certain athletes as being more important than everyone elses'.

The only thing we're not doing here is admitting the reality, that money makers for the university ARE treated more importantly than your average students.

If they weren't, they wouldn't be setting up remote learning for the other students while these same universities crafted an entire plan to play football.

Now we're backing off this overnight? Because we realized that its unfair to regular students?

Sorry, I'm not buying that.

As for the dollars at stake...those dollars would all be going to the schools anyway, which is a practice you've condemned. Assuming the schools themselves are willing to give up those dollars rather than value the health/lives of some students over others, that shouldn't be an issue.

Its a reality we've endured, and while we work to change that, we still have a responsibility to desires of the players, coaches and support staff who want to play.

 

[AZ_]

Its August 11, and they're finally discussing it...

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

But they're not as afraid of that hypocrisy as they are allowing student athletes to organize.Once again, they knew when they released the schedule LAST WEEK that they'd be testing these athletes regularly. Nothing changed, except the players demands and organization.

How do you know what they're afraid of? It feels like you've got this hammer, and so everything looks like a nail.

Anyway, you're right about the player's demands being a new element. So if you're talking about what the schools knew last week when they were willing to schedule, what they knew was their protocols, and the things they were willing to do as schools/organizations. They were willing to proceed with football under those terms.

But when the players come to them and say that is woefully insufficient, and have a bunch of additional demands that went beyond what the schools were willing to do, that's a different situation. And if that's why the schools decided they couldn't go ahead...that makes sense. They weren't willing to do what the players demanded in terms of even more preferential treatment. Things like contact tracing -- one of the players' demands -- on a college campus are a practical impossibility. They're also demanding that every school handle things the same way, and that too is an impossibility because schools themselves are autonomous, and they don't all prioritize football the same way. I'm guessing Northwestern and OSU don't see eye to eye on the importance of the football players/programs, or how much preferential treatment they are willing to extend.

Anyway, if the players are making health-related demands that the conferences/schools can't agree to meet, then we shouldn't have a season. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Is it preferential? You're asking them to do things other students don't because it makes your university money. I'd call that fair and equitable treatment for services provided.

College players do get all sorts of preferential treatment. But these are life/death/long-term medical issues for which all the other students are also at risk, and that's justifiably a bridge too far for many schools. Parents, students, professors, administrators, employees...the idea that all of them should be okay with the idea that it's fine if they get Covid, but not fine if football players do, just isn't tenable. And all the additional demands made by players would just make that much more stark.

 

[AZ_]

How do you know what they're afraid of? It feels like you've got this hammer, and so everything looks like a nail. I

Anyway, you're right about the player's demands being a new element. So if you're talking about what the schools knew last week when they were willing to schedule, what they knew was their protocols, and the things they were willing to do as schools/organizations. But when the players come to them and say that is woefully insufficient, and have a bunch of additional demands that went beyond what the schools were willing to do, that's a different situation. And if that's why the schools decided they couldn't go ahead...that makes sense. They weren't willing to do what the players demanded in terms of even more preferential treatment. Things like contact tracing -- one of the players' demands -- on a college campus are a practical impossibility.

One of the risks you run when you make hardline demands when the timeframe is tight is that other side will say "nope, not willing to do that", and walk away. And honestly, if the schools are not willing to provide what the players are demanding, then the season shouldn't happen.



College players do get all sorts of preferential treatment. But these are life/death/long-term medical issues for which all the other students are also at risk, and that's justifiably a bridge too far for many schools. Parents, students, professors, administrators, employees...the idea that all of them should be okay with the idea that it's fine if they get Covid, but not fine if football players do, just isn't tenable. And all the additional demands made by players would just make that much more stark.

Acknowledging the harsh realities of athletics has never been an easy concept to stomach for the schools who so openly whore those students out for every last dollar brought into the schools.

Speaking as a former athlete, I'm all for providing the same treatment for academic superstars on campus getting preferential treatment as well. But that's a different discussion, and likely one where we could find more agreement.

Whether or not the players demands are "tenable" seems to run secondary to the optics of hypocrisy that would be bestowed upon these President's for acknowledging the reality of their "non-profit" status.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Acknowledging the harsh realities of athletics has never been an easy concept to stomach for the schools who so openly whore those students out for every last dollar brought into the schools.

Speaking as a former athlete, I'm all for providing the same treatment for academic superstars on campus getting preferential treatment as well. But that's a different discussion, and likely one where we could find more agreement.

Whether or not the players demands are "tenable" seems to run secondary to the optics of hypocrisy that would be bestowed upon these President's for acknowledging the reality of their "non-profit" status.

Well...it appears that a great many schools are perfectly willing to give up all the money they'd make from all their TV deals, so it evidently is not quite as central to their existence as some may think.

I do think it's kind of funny that the "academically questionable" SEC is the strongest advocate for playing ball. Maybe they should just secede from the college system altogether and become a minor league for the NFL.

 

[AZ_]

Well...it appears that a great many schools are perfectly willing to give up all the money they'd make from all their TV deals, so it evidently is not quite as central to their existence as some may think.

I do think it's kind of funny that the "academically questionable" SEC is the strongest advocate for playing ball. Maybe they should just secede from the college system altogether and become a minor league for the NFL.

To the surprise of nobody at all:

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

This is apparently a recent development. Schools may believe that given the impossibility of ensuring that nobody gets Covid-19 no matter what protocols are in place, the risk at this point isn't worth it.

Heart issue linked to virus drives Power 5 concern

A rare heart condition that could be linked to COVID-19 has been found in several athletes in the Big Ten and other Power 5 conferences.

www.espn.com

 

[LL3]

Its a reality we've endured, and while we work to change that, we still have a responsibility to desires of the players, coaches and support staff who want to play.

Why do we have responsibility to these desires? Even if we have arrived at this point by way of hypocrisy or fear of organization or other, in this current climate it does not make sense for a University to trudge forward into sports seasons. It is not as if I have no sympathy or empathy -- I certainly feel for a number of athletes I know or have coached who have lost this opportunity of a season, but with all the factors examined, these desires should not trump what is most reasonable in the moment.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

To the surprise of nobody at all:

Not exactly sure what that purports to show, but given that 1) New York City alone has had more coronavirus cases than the entire state of Georgia, and 2) there isn't a speck of red or even orange in the entire state of New York, but Georgia looks nasty as hell, I'm curious.

CDC COVID Data Tracker

www.cdc.gov

 

[Ohio]

 

[inliner311]

This is apparently a recent development. Schools may believe that given the impossibility of ensuring that nobody gets Covid-19 no matter what protocols are in place, the risk at this point isn't worth it.

Heart issue linked to virus drives Power 5 concern

A rare heart condition that could be linked to COVID-19 has been found in several athletes in the Big Ten and other Power 5 conferences.

www.espn.com

So when I saw this yesterday, I googled it. The first thing on the mayo clinic website says that even in mild cases that people shouldn't participate in competitive sports for 3-6 months to recover.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

So when I saw this yesterday, I googled it. The first thing on the mayo clinic website says that even in mild cases that people shouldn't participate in competitive sports for 3-6 months to recover.

If that's true, then maybe that's an additional reason some want a delay, to screen everyone?

I think the bottom line in all this is that if they decide to play, they're basically saying "damn the torpedoes", and saying they're just going to accept the consequences of a relatively small number of athletes having a serious reaction to Covid. Precautions that are impractical/unworkable/unfair to other students will have to be left behind. There's no way a collegiate bubble will last, so guys are going to get sick.

If you're not comfortable with that, then cancel or delay to spring. I think the incessant debate about half-measures is just trying to avoid that reality.

 

[inliner311]

If that's true, then maybe that's an additional reason some want a delay, to screen everyone?

I think the bottom line in all this is that if they decide to play, they're basically saying "damn the torpedoes", and saying they're just going to accept the consequences of a relatively small number of athletes having a serious reaction to Covid. Precautions that are impractical/unworkable/unfair to other students will have to be left behind. There's no way a collegiate bubble will last, so guys are going to get sick.

If you're not comfortable with that, then cancel or delay to spring. I think the incessant debate about half-measures is just trying to avoid that reality.

I think by delaying the season, players and the football staff basically have to show they can maintain their bubble with the regular students returning to campus. It makes it a much easier decision to say football can go on or not if they can or can't maintain keeping the virus away from the team.

I always thought they needed the players to actually believe their season could be in jeopardy if actually keep them from going out and partying or socializing outside of the team. I think now it will be a easier sell to the players to basically build them their on campus bubble. The players living off campus may be willing to move in on campus. Centralize their dorm and dining away from the rest of the students. Getting everyone on an online or independent study class schedule.