2021 Series #5 | Indians @ Reds| April 16th, 17th, and 18th

[sportscoach]

I am not advocating releasing Naylor tomorrow. I am pointing out that his nearly 400 ABs in the majors do not profile so far to a guy that will have a job anywhere as a regular in 2 years with his position limitations. His youth gives him a bit of a bigger window, but 2 years ago Jake Bauers was doing a few positive things at 23 to go with some very concerning things and we thought time would only make him better. He didn't fix those weaknesses and he will be a DFA candidate soon.

Jake Bauers at times has been also a little snot towards coaches... Maybe not that bad, but he isn't known for working well with coaches via our insider sources. Naylor on the other hand, I have heard the opposite about, he almost cares too much about getting things right.

Bauers on paper has good power, a very good eye at the plate and solid defensively at first, but it hasn't translated. He got a legit shot and messed it up. Naylor hasn't gotten the same shot yet, so you need to let him get it. Also as others have pointed out you are giving up on Naylor at the same time frame that JRam looked like a career AAAA guy.

 

[Derek]

Also, for all the talk of Santana and Pujols playing tougher positions before moving to 1B, Naylor is a lefty!

His options were 1B or OF.

 

[Gson]

That doesn't make you good at it. On the defensive spectrum it is the easiest position outside of DH. It is where they put the fat kid that can hit.

The fat kid that can hit.. is usually the catcher..

 

[BimboColesHair]

Guess I'm not seeing the problem with Naylor in RF?

100+ innings in he has a positive UZR, positive DRS, positive range rating, and his arm plays well in RF. He's been pleasantly average there considering I think he's more of a natural LF. He's not the most aesthetically pleasing guy out there, but he isn't hurting the team either. I get needing to plug the hole at 1st, but we aren't exactly flush with OF talent either.

His problem at the plate right now is hitting offspeed pitches. I mentioned this about Lindor in the ex-Indians thread, but it holds true for Naylor, Gimenez, and Amed Rosario too. It is hard to switch leagues for the 1st time as a hitter, even more so for a young guy who hasn't seen a full seasons worth of ABs, as is the case with Gimenez and Naylor.

Naylor is 109 ABs deep into his AL life. He has at least 400 more to go before we have a better idea what we have. But good signs are there. Exit velo is up, launch angle is up, hard hit% is up, he is swinging more frequently at pitches in the zone, and swinging less frequently at pitches out of the zone. There are some troubling signs though. He's been brutal against lefties to this point, which is troubling because he had mirrored stats vs LHP and vs RHP prior to this season.

When he starts seeing some of these AL starters for the 2nd and 3rd times it will be interesting to see how he adjusts.

 

[sportscoach]

Guess I'm not seeing the problem with Naylor in RF?

100+ innings in he has a positive UZR, positive DRS, positive range rating, and his arm plays well in RF. He's been pleasantly average there considering I think he's more of a natural LF. He's not the most aesthetically pleasing guy out there, but he isn't hurting the team either. I get needing to plug the hole at 1st, but we aren't exactly flush with OF talent either.

His problem at the plate right now is hitting offspeed pitches. I mentioned this about Lindor in the ex-Indians thread, but it holds true for Naylor, Gimenez, and Amed Rosario too. It is hard to switch leagues for the 1st time as a hitter, even more so for a young guy who hasn't seen a full seasons worth of ABs, as is the case with Gimenez and Naylor.

Naylor is 109 ABs deep into his AL life. He has at least 400 more to go before we have a better idea what we have. But good signs are there. Exit velo is up, launch angle is up, hard hit% is up, he is swinging more frequently at pitches in the zone, and swinging less frequently at pitches out of the zone. There are some troubling signs though. He's been brutal against lefties to this point, which is troubling because he had mirrored stats vs LHP and vs RHP prior to this season.

When he starts seeing some of these AL starters for the 2nd and 3rd times it will be interesting to see how he adjusts.

Naylor looks like he has improved in RF from the preseason until now, without a doubt in RF, though experience of Naylor plus Amed out in the OF is a bit trickier since experience teaches you things and neither guy has that so I still see some defensive replacements.

Really the issue is, we want to get rid of Bauers and get someone more competent with the bat over at 1B. Plus we wanna see if Luplow is more than the left handed specialist he is on paper.

Also cutting Bauers, Moving Naylor allows us to maybe also gets the look at Johnson that a lot of people have been wanting to see. It's more of the we want Luplow/Johnson getting Bauers ABs...

 

[BimboColesHair]

Naylor looks like he has improved in RF from the preseason until now, without a doubt in RF, though experience of Naylor plus Amed out in the OF is a bit trickier since experience teaches you things and neither guy has that so I still see some defensive replacements.

Really the issue is, we want to get rid of Bauers and get someone more competent with the bat over at 1B. Plus we wanna see if Luplow is more than the left handed specialist he is on paper.

Also cutting Bauers, Moving Naylor allows us to maybe also gets the look at Johnson that a lot of people have been wanting to see. It's more of the we want Luplow/Johnson getting Bauers ABs...

Meh on this. At least in what I have seen, I don't think Naylor would be a good defensive 1B for an organization that values infield defense as much as the Indians do. He's athletic and more rangy than your normal 1B, but he has no feel for picking throws and his arm gets him into trouble. Chang looks more comfortable picking throws a 1B than him and he picked up a 1B mitt for this first time this year.

I would get it if I saw someone who could play a passable 1B, but I don't think he can over the course of a full season. You can't just vouch for a guy to play there because he has played there in the past...there is a reason he was moved off of that position in the 1st place by the Padres. And the Indians moved him off 1B real quick this spring. He looked rough there.

 

[daddywags]

I think Naylor's natural position is LF. On another note, I really hope Luplow gets a shot at every day at bats for a couple months at some point this season.

 

[CDAV45]

Listen, I appreciate your willingness to endorse playing Naylor at 1B now despite your reservations about him since we really don't have anyone else better to play there on the roster right now. And I get why you don't think he's ideal physically. But on what basis can we claim that he's not ideal because of his poor defense? I mean, is this something intrinsic we know about him? Or just that he's "poor" because he hasn't played there? Or because he got excited to end the game the other day after making two flawless pickups on ground balls and then the third one he just botched because, well, that sometimes happens when a guy takes his eyes off the ball for a second before turning to run toward the end zone? Do we REALLY know he's a poor defender? Which essentially means he's well below average both now and into the future...do we really know that?

I never make judgements based on a single play or circumstance. The basis I use is that Josh is limited defensively and I happen to believe that he’s better suited for LF. I say that and look how many bad routes he’s taken so far so my determination is not based off of a particular play. Good or bad.

How do we know if any player is undesirable going forward? The fact remains that Tito and Co found it a better idea to put Bauers at 1B and Naylor in RF. There’s a reason for that and I understand the decision if Bauer’s is going to be on the roster. Remove Bauers and Naylor is the best 1B option currently on the 26 man and Luplow is a better OFer.

I never said that Naylor will be another Ramirez, but this judgement base upon relatively few at bats and a players size is inane.

What is 'ideal for any position?

The player that can do it well.

Sandy's height certainly wasn't ideal for a catcher according to those who prejudge based upon body type. He was too freaking tall by at least four inches to be an ideal catcher...except that he was.

Some of you folks wouldn't have signed Kirby Puckett or CC Sabathia (too fat) or Pedro Martinez (too short and too skinny) or Chris Speilman (too short and too slow) or Bill Russell (too short).

Get over it. Good ball players come in all shapes and sizes.

Again, far reaches and exaggerations typical from you when trying to state your case.

Nobody, and I mean nobody has stated ever that certain bodily structures cannot perform at any position. That wasn't your fucking question though was it? Your question was why isn't he ideal and I've told you. The Cleveland Brass that you hold in high esteem has told you that they view him more as an OFer. He's doesn't appear to be a good defender at any one position so putting him at a position that can "mask" those defensive liabilities would seem ideal, and that's exactly what they've done. Think about it. Naylor and Bauers both have played 1B and corner OF. They chose to go with Naylor in RF and Bauers at 1B. WTF is wrong with them! Those idiots would never have put Jose Ramirez at 3B because he's short or drafted CC Sabathia because he was fat.

You get over it. There are certain parameters that are preferred in just about everything in life. That doesn't mean that someone that doesn't fit the ideal prescription can't do a good job. For example, my wife is hot. She would still be a great companion if she was uglier than a mud rail fence, but I prefer that she be hot.

 

[Tondo]

Reds swung through a lot of his FB around 90, the pitch is a 50+ overall for me. His curve is above average and who knows how good his newly added slider can become, it's already an easy 50, very effective. His change is below average.

Agree with Bimbo, if/when his command comes back, that's a pretty good ML SP

 

[Alabuckeye]

Thus ends a meh week. Disappointing because it feels we left a couple of wins on the field. Disappointing because Plesac and Logan had forgettable outings. Encouraging because Tito's teams don't let the day before impact today's results too often. We will know what we have in another month.

 

[BimboColesHair]

Reds swung through a lot of his FB around 90, the pitch is a 50+ overall for me. His curve is above average and who knows how good his newly added slider can become, it's already an easy 50, very effective. His change is below average.

Agree with Bimbo, if/when his command comes back, that's a pretty good ML SP

His FB sitting 90 looks more mid-90s to the hitter because his extension gets him so close to the plate. It's an easy 50+ grade pitch, its generating as many whiffs as Glasnow and Kopech's 97 this year. He's been asked to straighten it up a bit this year too so hitters see it for even less time. Why I don't understand his velocity as a knock...when you're releasing the ball a few feet closer to the plate than most pitchers, there is little difference between 90 and 95.

His curve is his best pitch, not even close. He continues using it the way he has to this point and it's a 55+ to 60 for me. No one has touched it this year to this point, long way to go though.

His slider isn't new, he was just asked to throw it harder this year to generate more horizontal movement so it looks a bit different. His slider was pretty straight with nothing but vertical drop last year and they want him to change that.

For me, the thing that will take him to the next level is his change-up. A pitch he has been working with on the side, but one that would play well off a fastball they are wanting him to straighten up. As is the case with most people learning change-ups, they have a knack of hanging them a little too much. He cleans that up and locates it it'll be tough to hit paired with his fastball.

 

[CATS44]

I never make judgements based on a single play or circumstance. The basis I use is that Josh is limited defensively and I happen to believe that he’s better suited for LF. I say that and look how many bad routes he’s taken so far so my determination is not based off of a particular play. Good or bad.

How do we know if any player is undesirable going forward? The fact remains that Tito and Co found it a better idea to put Bauers at 1B and Naylor in RF. There’s a reason for that and I understand the decision if Bauer’s is going to be on the roster. Remove Bauers and Naylor is the best 1B option currently on the 26 man and Luplow is a better OFer.

Again, far reaches and exaggerations typical from you when trying to state your case.

Nobody, and I mean nobody has stated ever that certain bodily structures cannot perform at any position. That wasn't your fucking question though was it? Your question was why isn't he ideal and I've told you. The Cleveland Brass that you hold in high esteem has told you that they view him more as an OFer. He's doesn't appear to be a good defender at any one position so putting him at a position that can "mask" those defensive liabilities would seem ideal, and that's exactly what they've done. Think about it. Naylor and Bauers both have played 1B and corner OF. They chose to go with Naylor in RF and Bauers at 1B. WTF is wrong with them! Those idiots would never have put Jose Ramirez at 3B because he's short or drafted CC Sabathia because he was fat.

You get over it. There are certain parameters that are preferred in just about everything in life. That doesn't mean that someone that doesn't fit the ideal prescription can't do a good job. For example, my wife is hot. She would still be a great companion if she was uglier than a mud rail fence, but I prefer that she be hot.

The fact that you declare that Naylor is limited defensively, without having seen him play.....and you began saying that before the season even began....says it all.

There are other reasons why a certain player is put in a defensive position other than because its his best position.

In Naylors case, the Padres moved him off first the minute they signed Hosmer to a long term contract. They liked his bat, but needed him to move.

Its more of the same in Cleveland, but for a different reason. The FO wants to see what it has in Bauers and Bradley. They can't do that with Naylor playing first base.

NOBODY knows yet which position fits Naylor best...RF, LF, or 1B. He will end up playing wherever he is needed. He may never ever play his best position, due to team needs.

Much like JRam, whose best position was second base, but was forced to play short until Lindor was ready...then played left until third base opened up...because second base was taken.

 

[BimboColesHair]

His FB sitting 90 looks more mid-90s to the hitter because his extension gets him so close to the plate. It's an easy 50+ grade pitch, its generating as many whiffs as Glasnow and Kopech's 97 this year. He's been asked to straighten it up a bit this year too so hitters see it for even less time. Why I don't understand his velocity as a knock...when you're releasing the ball a few feet closer to the plate than most pitchers, there is little difference between 90 and 95.

Also, cross over to the minors and prospect talk.

This is what Joey Cantillo does as well. He uses his height to his fullest advantage and has a release point that is closer to the plate than average. Only difference is he already drops in an MLB level changeup to work off that deception, as opposed to a curve.

 

[CDAV45]

The fact that you declare that Naylor is limited defensively, without having seen him play.....and you began saying that before the season even began....says it all.

There are other reasons why a certain player is put in a defensive position other than because its his best position.

In Naylors case, the Padres moved him off first the minute they signed Hosmer to a long term contract. They liked his bat, but needed him to move.

Its more of the same in Cleveland, but for a different reason. The FO wants to see what it has in Bauers and Bradley. They can't do that with Naylor playing first base.

NOBODY knows yet which position fits Naylor best...RF, LF, or 1B. He will end up playing wherever he is needed. He may never ever play his best position, due to team needs.

Much like JRam, whose best position was second base, but was forced to play short until Lindor was ready...then played left until third base opened up...because second base was taken.

He wasn't viewed as a good defender at 1B in the San Diego system either. Average at best, and I think his ability to move well, his strong arm, and his lack of height could potentially be better suited for LF. That doesn't mean he will never or can't become a good 1B. All we have to go on is what has been done and analysis, visual or otherwise. I've stated in this thread that I agree that Naylor is currently the best 1B option on the roster. That's not because he is a better defender there than Bauers. The opposite is quite apparent or at least it should be. They could have seen if Bauers was going to hit while playing RF and Naylor playing 1B. They didn't and there's a reason for that CATS, even if you want to ignore it.

I'm not going to address the silly JRam comparisons any more.

 

[CATS44]

Giolito got bombed in the first today, and didn't record an out in the second.

Seven of the first eight batters he faced got a hit.

Two errors contributed three more runs, all unearned.

Its 10-3 Boston after six, and Chicago has already burnt two relievers.