2022 Summer League Thread

[inliner311]

Keep in mind a lot of the guys playing in SL will be driving an Amazon truck in October.

You might be joking but basketball is one sport that there are so many leagues around the world that these guys no matter how bad they look in summer league can probably use their college resume to get a spot playing somewhere to defer getting a real job for quite a while. Some might not make enough money to support themselves and a family back home but if a player has no obligations beyond themselves, they can basically get a free semester abroad to play basketball.

 

[kookoo]

I find it funny that people post about Windler's relationships with his coaches like they know what actually happened. Or that people think player development at the pro level is heavily affected by the team's head coach. Dudes, dogs wag tails. Consider Varejao. Silas would barely even play him for his first few weeks as a Cav. Then Varejao started tearing off great plays and earned his minutes. Or Chubb under Hue Jackson. Good players earn their minutes even when the head coach doesn't know what he's doing. Force feeding minutes to a guy that isn't going to cut it isn't going to make him good. Forcing a player to work on his weaknesses during game time at the pro level only makes a player better when the coach is an internet genius at a keyboard. Truth is very few players are good enough to play at a pro level and most guys washout. It would be great if Windler can figuratively rebound to find his stroke again, but if he misses time because of another fracture or major surgery, his NBA career is probably done for. No one can play ball when their bones keep breaking, and the coach doesn't have a lot of say in that matter.

Anyway, someone mention that AO's stroke looked like Ray Allen. I was thinking the same thing. They both can hit that high arcing rainbow from deep. They both look like they are always balanced when they leave their feet. They both have such a consistent release that's almost uncanny, like a basketball shooting robot. AO is going to make shots at the pro level. If AO learns to handle the ball 1/5 as well as Allen (and doesn't come down with Windler's breaky bone syndrome) he's got an NBA career.

I think part of the coaching isn't the relationship but the plays the COACHES need to draw up to best utilize certain players. We were very reliant on both Garland and Rubio to kind of come up with magic vs having a lot of good team plays. JBB unfortunately isn't a very creative offensive minded coach. Yes, of course Windler has had his bone related issues, but there were also moments where Windler was playing well and once Lauri and Cedi were back he just got kicked out of the rotation completely. Personally I don't trust JBB and though we over performed last season, I hope we find a new coach (unless Luke pretty much takes care of all of the offense, in which case it's fine).

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

I find it funny that people post about Windler's relationships with his coaches like they know what actually happened. Or that people think player development at the pro level is heavily affected by the team's head coach. Dudes, dogs wag tails. Consider Varejao. Silas would barely even play him for his first few weeks as a Cav. Then Varejao started tearing off great plays and earned his minutes. Or Chubb under Hue Jackson. Good players earn their minutes even when the head coach doesn't know what he's doing. Force feeding minutes to a guy that isn't going to cut it isn't going to make him good. Forcing a player to work on his weaknesses during game time at the pro level only makes a player better when the coach is an internet genius at a keyboard. Truth is very few players are good enough to play at a pro level and most guys washout. It would be great if Windler can figuratively rebound to find his stroke again, but if he misses time because of another fracture or major surgery, his NBA career is probably done for. No one can play ball when their bones keep breaking, and the coach doesn't have a lot of say in that matter.

Anyway, someone mention that AO's stroke looked like Ray Allen. I was thinking the same thing. They both can hit that high arcing rainbow from deep. They both look like they are always balanced when they leave their feet. They both have such a consistent release that's almost uncanny, like a basketball shooting robot. AO is going to make shots at the pro level. If AO learns to handle the ball 1/5 as well as Allen (and doesn't come down with Windler's breaky bone syndrome) he's got an NBA career.

Want to consider something else funny?

Ray Allen had a hell of a coach in Calhoun and then he realized his full pro potential under George Karl after a few meh coaches.

In his book he talked about how Calhoun helped him feel confident in taking every shot instinctually because he overworked and overpracticed the habits that became his jumper you are lauding him for.

Allen had major insecurities before he stepped foot on campus in Stoors.

He averaged less than 5 3pa until he got to George Karl where he jumped up his 3pa to 7+ annually and attempted more than 8 in a couple seasons under Karl’s tutelage.

I type a lot and sometimes I’m blowing hot air or cracking jokes, but I’m pretty passionate about players developing and reaching their peak and I know firsthand how much influence coaching has on that

 

[Douglar]

I think part of the coaching isn't the relationship but the plays the COACHES need to draw up to best utilize certain players. We were very reliant on both Garland and Rubio to kind of come up with magic vs having a lot of good team plays. JBB unfortunately isn't a very creative offensive minded coach. Yes, of course Windler has had his bone related issues, but there were also moments where Windler was playing well and once Lauri and Cedi were back he just got kicked out of the rotation completely. Personally I don't trust JBB and though we over performed last season, I hope we find a new coach (unless Luke pretty much takes care of all of the offense, in which case it's fine).

And what's next? Are you going to say Coach should have been out there on the floor moving the hands of his capable "score first" PG to make sure passes were going to his under performing SF as requested ? There's a reason "teach first" coaches burn out so fast in the NBA. It doesn't work when you try to teach hyper athletic men like you teach middle schoolers.

Cavs offense sucked last year because there wasn't enough play making or shooting once Rubio & Sexton went down. The coach can't go out there and space the floor when the only shooter he has left is also his primary ball handler. So blame the "creativity" of the coach all you want, but the NBA is a talent driven league and "the plays" are not heavily scripted football plays, they are suggestions to grown men who at times have strong opinions about their teammates' ability. Piss off your players and they stop listening to your suggestions.

Edit : typos

 

[cliffdawg]

I find it funny that people post about Windler's relationships with his coaches like they know what actually happened. Or that people think player development at the pro level is heavily affected by the team's head coach. Dudes, dogs wag tails. Consider Varejao. Silas would barely even play him for his first few weeks as a Cav. Then Varejao started tearing off great plays and earned his minutes. Or Chubb under Hue Jackson. Good players earn their minutes even when the head coach doesn't know what he's doing. Force feeding minutes to a guy that isn't going to cut it isn't going to make him good. Forcing a player to work on his weaknesses during game time at the pro level only makes a player better when the coach is an internet genius at a keyboard. Truth is very few players are good enough to play at a pro level and most guys washout. It would be great if Windler can figuratively rebound to find his stroke again, but if he misses time because of another fracture or major surgery, his NBA career is probably done for. No one can play ball when their bones keep breaking, and the coach doesn't have a lot of say in that matter.

Anyway, someone mention that AO's stroke looked like Ray Allen. I was thinking the same thing. They both can hit that high arcing rainbow from deep. They both look like they are always balanced when they leave their feet. They both have such a consistent release that's almost uncanny, like a basketball shooting robot. AO is going to make shots at the pro level. If AO learns to handle the ball 1/5 as well as Allen (and doesn't come down with Windler's breaky bone syndrome) he's got an NBA career.

Great post about relationships to coaching players, Your right we don’t know what going on, I pretty sure Windler has the green light to pull the trigger and I have seen them run off the ball screens plays for him …..If he not wide open he wont pull the trigger or he trying to make the next best pass….When he miss a couple shots in a row, he wont shoot for a week……I watch him in the D league a few times last year, and he was the same player, deferring to other players, when I’m sure they told him to be a little selfish down there……He needs to have that dog attitude out there , or he going to find himself in Europe pretty soon…..

 

[Douglar]

I type a lot and sometimes I’m blowing hot air or cracking jokes, but I’m pretty passionate about players developing and reaching their peak and I know firsthand how much influence coaching has on that

Glad things worked out for Ray. He had Coach Karl at the same age that AO is today, 22.

I'm sure you are right about coaching at the college and high school level. Coaching is really big there.

At the pro level? Not nearly as much, especially when a player can't stay healthy.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

You were going to see a bunch of RCFers tagging you with pitchforks tonight if he didn’t have a more assertive/aggressive showing in game 3, so I’ll allow the future best shooter in the league hyperbole for tonight Boobs

That’s what summer league is for!

To be fair I’ve been on the “ lower middle class but not totally broke man’s Klay Thimpson” train for a long time.

You know you loved that rainbow 3 coming off a quick dribble handoff early in the clock, he takes two dribbles to the right away, kind of fakes like he’s going to reset the play for a half second and then just pulls up with pure confidence in the shot…Idk if I’ve ever seen Danny Green do that. I hate the Danny Green comparison. He’s a much more dynamic shooter that can take and make tough shots in multiple different situations…so I gotta go with the “pray he’s Klay” option personally

 

[Cavatt]

I think Windler looked good even at times last year, despite the shot going down. The problem is that he missed his opportunity for developmental minutes and there basically aren't any anymore. Okoro is going to have the same issue this year if he can't add to offense. We thought we had 4-5 years for Okoro to figure it out, but Darius, Mobley, and Allen moved that timetable up with how well they played.

Sexton will even be in that same boat if he can't play with the other guys and only plays at the same time as them.

Windler's injury came at the worst possible time for him. He could have easily started at SF when he was drafted and pushed Cedi to the bench, but that is such a remote possibility no matter what happens at this point. 3-4 guys would have to go down in the rotation ahead of him for him to get more than 10 min in a game. Some of that is the coach, but some of it is he is 25 and doesn't have any NBA min under his belt.

We've also seen lower body injuries wreak havoc on shooters before. Boobie had Turf toe and it killed his shooting for most of a season. Guy has a rod of metal in his leg. I'd love love to see the dude we drafted, but to me he has played scared since he was taken out of the air and broke his wrist.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

Glad things worked out for Ray. He had Coach Karl at the same age that AO is today, 22.

I'm sure you are right about coaching at the college and high school level. Coaching is really big there.

At the pro level? Not nearly as much, especially when a player can't stay healthy.

I’m driving so I can’t reference what I’m being snarky about . I meant Westphal I think was the Sonics coach.

 

[mds]

People just want to bitch. No one knows anything, just lots of conjecture so they can point fingers at how the Cavs are failing at something.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

That’s what summer league is for!

To be fair I’ve been on the “ lower middle class but not totally broke man’s Klay Thimpson” train for a long time.

You know you loved that rainbow 3 coming off a quick dribble handoff early in the clock, he takes two dribbles to the right away, kind of fakes like he’s going to reset the play for a half second and then just pulls up with pure confidence in the shot…Idk if I’ve ever seen Danny Green do that. I hate the Danny Green comparison. He’s a much more dynamic shooter that can take and make tough shots in multiple different situations…so I gotta go with the “pray he’s Klay” option personally

I’m meeting you halfway on this geriatric lottery pick with a sweet release, Boobs.

Danny Green is the highest I can do for comps now

Take it or leave it

 

[Mr. Orange]

You might be joking but basketball is one sport that there are so many leagues around the world that these guys no matter how bad they look in summer league can probably use their college resume to get a spot playing somewhere to defer getting a real job for quite a while. Some might not make enough money to support themselves and a family back home but if a player has no obligations beyond themselves, they can basically get a free semester abroad to play basketball.

It’s a common phrase to say that they won’t be in the big leagues.

 

[MD13]

The one guy I wanted absolutely no part of under any circumstance was Johnny Davis. Thank God the Wiz took him before us.

 

[Erbium]

Random thoughts:

1).
I'm in the minority, but I'm keeping Windler all day over Cedi.

Windler has always displayed active hands, good rebounding, and a theoretical shooting prowess that can be theoretically elite. That's the kind of guy I'm patient with (like the Heat are with their guys); Windler seems to be struggling for confidence; that can be a challenge to correct without playing through it, but Dylan wont ever likely be a player good enough that gets to play through tough stretches. He, along with Okoro & Stevens should be in Vegas in my opinion, working on things in game action, and building confidence in their new/old skills. That said, with Walton's experience at Golden State, and their continued ability to turn unsung players into contributors, I'd prefer to give Dylan one more year as opposed to keeping Cedi...

Cedi is a B- player without one skill that can be elite. We've seen enough. He's not terrible, but, when you are looking for 9-12th men in your rotation, you sort of want to dial in on specialists or high upside players. Cedi isn't these things. If we need a roster spot, or the ability to stay out of the tax, Cedi is my top choice.

2).
I also spent some time learning about G-League salary cap/pay, in regards to Mobley. I was sort of wondering if the Cavs could give Isaiah a juicy contract on the Charge to free up our 2-way; unfortunately that loop hole is closed. Basically as a designated player or 2-way guy you make $125k for the season, and, as a 2 way player, you get paid the minimum on a per game basis for the times you are with the Big Club. So, moving Isaiah off the 2-way this season is about a $500k haircut...no way we can make that move this year, without giving Isaiah a chance to develop his game and body. I'm thinking we move off Nembhard due to roster construction though...

3).
I'm still wondering if there was a cultural red flag on Eason that cant be quantified. 2 High schools (and different schools soph-junior-senior years), committed to Cincy, and then transferred to LSU (due a coaching change, but going to LSU to not start seems unusual; Cincy & LSU not exactly known for the choir boys either). That's a lot of movement over the last 5 years for someone this talented. I also did the search for the puff piece where the prospects credit or talk about thier past/family/formative experiences, and found basically nothing. Social media is basically non-existent. That could be because Tari is a gym rat, or simply boring. But his profile falling to 17, and then Houston, who notoriously are big cultural risk takers, drafting him, makes me feel like there is something we do not know...

 

[MirORich]

The Windler slander is crazy.

How soon we forget. When I saw this guy in summer league, I was sure that with patient coaching he would be our Thunder Dan or Craig Ehlo. This guy wasn’t overthinking the game. He was playing INSTINCTUAL.

His length and nose for the ball… he’d be the best player on this years summer league team


This guy came from a Spurs like Belmont program where he broke records for legendary coach Rick Byrd.

Who is Rick Byrd? Only literally a college carbon copy of Greg Popovich or Larry Brown. Belmont is a tiny little Christian college a few blocks away from my old office and I circled about 3 of their home games and squeezed into their tiny gym and suffered through pregame prayers to see his teams compete because of how great he was. The college might be the size of Case Western Reserve or Our Lady of the Elms and he turned them into a POWER that turned out multiple NBA players despite being like the 5th choice of in-state 3-star recruits (they get Vandy, Memphis, UT and MTSU leftovers).

Byrd started this guy for 4 years and developed him and I still believe he has the tools to contribute at this level… under a coach that knows how use the tools in his shed.

Referencing Sunmer League to support Windler is not the basis of a strong argument. Anthony Randolph anyone?