2024 Guardians Spring Training Thread

[PPark]

He has hit 2 balls in play that have made it out of the infield so far.

Singled to right, flew out to center twice and left twice, but who’s counting

 

[KluberSociety]

I’m curious why he’s ranked as one of our top prospects? Nothing he’s done is above average or even average except maybe his defense.

He's performed in the minor leagues at a young age. He's generally shown promising bat-to-ball and solid glove work. Seems to still need work on his plate approach and he isn't showing power or arm strength. I don't understand either why he would be ranked over DeLauter or Manzardo, and Martinez looks like an improved guy who I'd also rank about him at this point. But it's not like he hasn't shown he's got talent at the highest levels of the minors or anything...

He honestly seems a lot like Freeman in his skill set but more than a step back in the hit tool and a step forward in getting to ground balls. But of course significantly younger.

Also I just don't get the obsessively prescriptive approach some take when it comes to how we achieve production. If guys get on base, runs will score. If guys hit HRs, runs will score. The question is how to get runs to score, not how to achieve a particular method of getting runs to score. And we have a decent amount of potential middle of the order bats, so it's not like the future is super bleak. The most important thing is to make sure that there's no big holes in the lineup. Straw and the pre-Bo catchers last season were that, way too much. So was our 2nd MIF whoever that was at the time. All 3 should be improvements this year.

 

[Beanie4Heisman]

That analysis comes up frequently because one way of hitting a baseball {hard and over the wall} takes one successful event to transpire.

Whereby scoring runs via base runners takes multiples outcomes of success/sacrifice in an inning.

So therefore homeruns are a statistically significant aspect of run generation and options of such therein.

It would not be such a harped on subject if we weren't laughably putting up league lows in power hitting numbers and then figuring out our best outfield the following year probably still will not frequently drive the ball with authority.

 

[KluberSociety]

That analysis comes up frequently because one way of hitting a baseball {hard and over the wall} takes one successful event to transpire.

Whereby scoring runs via base runners takes multiples outcomes of success/sacrifice in an inning.

So therefore homeruns are a statistically significant aspect of run generation and options of such therein.

It would not be such a harped on subject if we weren't laughably putting up league lows in power hitting numbers and then figuring out our best outfield the following year probably still will not frequently drive the ball with authority.

And when you look at how often one player "hits a baseball hard and over the wall" it sure is nice when it happens, but in all the other games it's not happening. So you replace a 10 HR guy with a 30 HR guy. That is less than one extra HR per week.

Yeah of course HRs are nice to have. But stop trying to make a quality issue into a style issue. We just don't have enough great hitters. We don't have many great OBP hitters either.

Whatever gets the runs home...

And nobody is saying that home runs don't improve run generation, but there's many things that improve run generation and there's stats which measure contribution to run generation more holistically like wRC+ so why just focus on one way of reaching it?

Maybe the most fair criticism would be of recent actions in something letting NoJo and Benson go and going with Brennan instead, and making the argument that the organization undervalued power. But that isn't quite what I'm seeing.

 

[Tondo]

I don't think I ever had Arias ranked as a better prospect than Freeman.. Did anybody?

Going into the 2022 season I had Arias 4th and Freeman 5th, but very close and both a tier behind Rocchio/Espino/Valera.

But our FO has made it pretty clear last year that they prefer Arias over Freeman (and Rocchio) and I believe that this was their first evaluation mistake in the MIF logjam.

They will stick to their eval and give Arias more runway to see it through. Since Rocchio isn't pushing the issue, he'll be the opening day SS by default.

I do see the massive potential most Arias believers dream on, but I believe he's the type of player who needs years and hundreds/thousands of PAs to slowly get there (if at all).

We don't have the luxury to wait for him while blocking half a dozen other guys. If he doesn't perform while getting runway as a starter, I'm totally fine making him the Util and earn back his chance but not sure he'll get the PAs he needs in that role.

 

[Tondo]

He's performed in the minor leagues at a young age. He's generally shown promising bat-to-ball and solid glove work. Seems to still need work on his plate approach and he isn't showing power or arm strength. I don't understand either why he would be ranked over DeLauter or Manzardo, and Martinez looks like an improved guy who I'd also rank about him at this point. But it's not like he hasn't shown he's got talent at the highest levels of the minors or anything...

He honestly seems a lot like Freeman in his skill set but more than a step back in the hit tool and a step forward in getting to ground balls. But of course significantly younger.

Also I just don't get the obsessively prescriptive approach some take when it comes to how we achieve production. If guys get on base, runs will score. If guys hit HRs, runs will score. The question is how to get runs to score, not how to achieve a particular method of getting runs to score. And we have a decent amount of potential middle of the order bats, so it's not like the future is super bleak. The most important thing is to make sure that there's no big holes in the lineup. Straw and the pre-Bo catchers last season were that, way too much. So was our 2nd MIF whoever that was at the time. All 3 should be improvements this year.

So much this (bolded part).

Lineup cohesion is way more important than even a handful of big bats, because opponents can attack/wait for the weak part. The Trout/Ohtani Angels are still the best proof for that.

We had Rosario, Zunino/Gallagher, Straw and O. Gonzalez in every fucking lineup early last year. That's almost half your lineup with an OBP waaaay under 300, producing outs after outs without much power to compensate. That's what sunk us. Replace those 4 with 4 boring "average" Tyler Freeman bats and the lineup suddenly is very much competitive.

I read somewhere that the Orioles didn't have real standout bats north of a 850 OPS, but they didn't have any starter with an OPS south of iirc 700-750? That what makes a good offense.

Now let's see who we replace our black holes with:

Bo Naylor for Zunino should be a clear upgrade, both OBP and power.
Florial/Freeman for Straw...we will see. Freeman would definitely stabilize the lineup, but can he play CF adequately? Florial is a risk and could easily be as bad as Straw, but at least offers more upside. Overall, should be an upgrade.

Laureano/Brennan should be an OBP upgrade over O. Gonzalez and at least match the power output. Boring/avg, but dependable stability.

SS is the big ?? still. Arias was even worse than Rosario at the plate (when he took over as starter), but compensated with defense. But a sub 280 OBP isn't playable. He was basically INF version of Straw, avg pop but even worse OBP. We need more, obviously. I suspect this will remain a black hole in the daily lineup going into 2024. Hopefully, somebody will fill that spot quickly.

One weak spot is tolerable, two is already a problem. Since we'll have a lot of Hedges and Straw thrown in here and there and the potential Florial risk, I'd anticipate (on average) 2 weak spots in our daily lineup. All it takes is one or two of our core guys to be in a slump and we'll struggle to score runs.

 

[CBBI]

Go ahead and continue to believe that. Who am I to burst someone's bubble.

If Tyler Freeman is Cleveland's starting CFer then we're fucked and you might as well call DeLauter up from the get go. Absolutely cracks me up that anyone could think that Kwan is incapable of CF and somehow Freeman is now our best CF option.

I don’t think anyone thinks this?

 

[AZ_]

The idea that Freeman is going to be a starting OFer for the 2024 Cleveland Guardians is absurd. At the very least it's running in place. If Straw isn't the starting CFer then that means he's either traded or his role is reduced. Either way CF will come down to Florial or Laureano. If an IFer takes over CF it's going to be Martinez.

Martinez hasn’t played a single inning of CF outside of a single offseason video and it’s abundantly clear Freeman is actually being given a chance there.

Very little of this is valid, just projection with little basis to believe.


That said, I remain skeptical they would give the job to any IF.

Laureano, Straw, Florial still most likely.

 

[sportscoach]

I don’t think anyone thinks this?

He's probably referring more towards me, who I have said Kwan can play CF, but he is lesser at CF than other guys we currently have like Brennan, Straw, Laureano, Florial...

He wants to move Kwan in a trade for a big OF bat or get Kwan in CF and put a big bat into LF. He wants LF and RF to have big bats...

Problem is, nothing has been available without trading a legit players like Clase, Allen or TMac plus they are still prospects/young players themselves who we are receiving back in those deals.

Cleveland in my mind isn't touching Kwan outside of giving him an extension. They aren't moving him from LF and they don't have anyone to replace his lead off skills...

 

[petes999]

Martinez hasn’t played a single inning of CF outside of a single offseason video and it’s abundantly clear Freeman is actually being given a chance there.

Very little of this is valid, just projection with little basis to believe.


That said, I remain skeptical they would give the job to any IF.

Laureano, Straw, Florial still most likely.

Agree w most. They tried to give Rosario CF and we saw how that went but it was rushed/desperate. Freeman started OF last offseason and just got an inn or few in OF last year. This year, year 2, he is given a chance (more so as Straw is injured and super utility type guy IMO than starter). Martinez has better skills for OF than Freeman to be starter. But, they will not rush this transition (get him to mlb first - then create a spot if ready)

 

[macbdog]

And when you look at how often one player "hits a baseball hard and over the wall" it sure is nice when it happens, but in all the other games it's not happening. So you replace a 10 HR guy with a 30 HR guy. That is less than one extra HR per week.

Yeah of course HRs are nice to have. But stop trying to make a quality issue into a style issue. We just don't have enough great hitters. We don't have many great OBP hitters either.

Whatever gets the runs home...

And nobody is saying that home runs don't improve run generation, but there's many things that improve run generation and there's stats which measure contribution to run generation more holistically like wRC+ so why just focus on one way of reaching it?

Maybe the most fair criticism would be of recent actions in something letting NoJo and Benson go and going with Brennan instead, and making the argument that the organization undervalued power. But that isn't quite what I'm seeing.

Not giving two guys with power an extended shot while giving a guy with no power an extended shot is pretty strong evidence they undervalued power.

 

[AZ_]

 

[CDAV45]

I don’t think anyone thinks this?

There have been more than one who turned their nose up at this idea.

Again, I ultimately don't care if he's in LF or CF CBBI. I only care about the overall OF dynamic. Having Kwan in LF, Freeman in CF and Brennan in RF is not what I'd like to see.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Positives so far: (from 2,000 miles away)

• Laureano seems to be having a good spring. Might even be the semi-regular CF. Could be he's very comfortable with Vogt.
• All the SP seem to be throwing OK. But I will feel better if McKenzie makes it through ST with no problems.
• Angel Martinez seems to be having a GREAT ST. Could he leapfrog Arias and Rocchio for the starting SS job?

 

[CDAV45]

Martinez hasn’t played a single inning of CF outside of a single offseason video and it’s abundantly clear Freeman is actually being given a chance there.

Very little of this is valid, just projection with little basis to believe.


That said, I remain skeptical they would give the job to any IF.

Laureano, Straw, Florial still most likely.

I didn't mean to infer that he had. I should have been more clear on that. My bad.

There was talk about Martinez making the transition, but I don't if anything has ever come of it. I was inferring that if an IF becomes the starting CF that it's most likely Martinez. Pure speculation on my part.

I'm with you AZ. I too am skeptical that they would give the job to any IF.

I hate the idea of Straw, but I think you're right. What they might do is switch Laureano's and Straw's roles. I could see the OF being Kwan, Laureano, Florial and Straw. Although I find it hard to fathom Brennan not being a part of it. I really have no f'n clue how it's going to shake out.