Class of 2003: Break down James, Anthony, Bosh, Wade, & Ford

[TJ_4_CV31]

I originally was going to post this in the Miami Development thread but decided to bring it out for discussion.

.............

I'm not going to sit here and say that Melo is better than Lebron because clearly he is not (although he should have been at least co-ROY). However, he's not as bad as many of you believe. There's a flaw in the prevailing perception that Lebron would do much better than Melo if he were in Denver when you reconcile the fact that Lebron put up 27/7/7 on a "bad" team. Lebron became the do-all-guy once McInnis flamed out and Z went down.

Bad (or average) players (Zaza Pachulia, Brevin Knight, ect.) put up good numbers on bad teams because someone has to get the numbers. To the same point, good or great players (Bubba Chukerson) put up even better numbers on bad teams...(Philly without Chuckerson and Cleveland without King James). Therefore, you cannot put forth Lebron's 27/7/7 as a statement for his superiority over Melo's 20/5/5 on a good team and Wade's 24/6/6 on an even better team.

With that being said, I would take Lebron over any of the guys from the 2003 draft. This is my order of selection if I were building MY team:

1.James
2.Wade
3.Ford
4.Bosh
5.Anthony

Here's how I would rank them in categories that would help to define who the better player is (adjusted for minutes played per game):

Scoring (overall):

1.James
2.Wade
3.Anthony
4.Bosh
5.Ford

Rebounding:

1.Bosh
2.James
3.Anthony
4.Wade
5.Ford

Playmaking (assists, improving teammates):

1.Ford
2.Wade
3.James
4.Anthony
5.Bosh

Low post game:

1.Bosh
2.Anthony
3.James
4.Wade
5.Ford

Jumper (including deep range):

1.Anthony
2.James
3.Wade
4.Ford
5.Bosh

Defense:

1.Bosh
2.Ford
3.Wade
4.James
5.Anthony

Penetrator:

1.Ford
2.Wade
3.James
4.Anthony
5.Bosh

Leadership:

1.Ford
2.Wade
3.James
4.Bosh
5.Anthony

Intangibles (winning, clutch, tempo, composure):

1.Wade
2.Ford
3.Anthony
4.James
5.Bosh

Most Valuable Player (Impact, wins):

?????????????

On talent alone, James and Wade are a cut above the rest. This season will go a long way towards determining who the most valuable player from this draft is. With the exception of Chris Bosh in Toronto, these 5 players are set up with rosters that are built for success. No excuses now. The 2005-2006 season will tell all.

Who shall prevail???????

Thoughts? Opinions?

 

[cdt]

TJ your a homer sorry. TJ Ford is not god alright. He is not a better penetrator then LeBron...LBJ had 12 ppg in the paint last year 3rd to only Shaq and Duncan. How is Ford a leader when this is his what like 3rd game of the year in which he has actually started? Please thats a joke.

 

[TJ_4_CV31]

TJ your a homer sorry. TJ Ford is not god alright. He is not a better penetrator then LeBron...LBJ had 12 ppg in the paint last year 3rd to only Shaq and Duncan. How is Ford a leader when this is his what like 3rd game of the year in which he has actually started? Please thats a joke.

CDT, you should know by now that I won't make a claim that I can't back with reasonable logic. By my estimation, a penetrator is a guy that can take the ball from any position on the court and get into the paint with quickness and make a play (pass or shot). Lebron is indeed an excellent penetrator but not on par with the league's elite point gaurds. Lebron's 12ppg in the paint would have to include his post ups, put backs, and breakaway jams....not true indicators of ball penetration. By your logic, Shaq and Duncan would also be better penetrators than guys like Ford and Parker.

 

[LyXo]

Actually this is a very accurate assessment. Well done.

TJ Ford is good. He is the star player of the Bucks, not Michael Redd. I'm glad... actually now mad that he's healthy and back playing... mad because he's the opposition.

But I don't agree on your leadership/intangibles... those are things you can't really quantify or assess. Eliminate those two and you have a good breakdown.

 

[cdt]

No I'm saying LeBron is a guard/forward and he has that many points in the paint it obviously means he is getting there by penetrating..he doesn't have a huge post game and he maybe gets a couple breakaway dunks per game. TJ Ford isn't a leader yet he has had 3 games with his team since injury, give the guy some time before proclaiming that...LeBron is a leader he takes games over you should know that by now a 12-0 run in a minute and a half shows that..

 

[LyXo]

Yea, pretty much in the Leadership/Intangibles section of your post, you just have no base for it. No logical base or backing to support it. You can make claims all you want, but in the end, all of us can. And, it's just way to early to make any sort of assessment in these areas.

And I don't think he doesn't recognize LBJ's ability to penetrate. It's undeniable. But we must also recognize that TJ Ford is one of the quickest PG's in the NBA and he's pretty damn good at penetrating. And because his outside shot is more suspect, he uses that more, for more carries if you must. The fact that he can strive to use his penetration without working on his shot spells for me that it's pretty damn good. And the PG position is much more penetration-dish position, so he's got that going for him too. And, I also believe that LBJ doesn't use his penetration capabilities to the point where he should be.

 

[TJ_4_CV31]

Actually this is a very accurate assessment. Well done.

TJ Ford is good. He is the star player of the Bucks, not Michael Redd. I'm glad... actually now mad that he's healthy and back playing... mad because he's the opposition.

But I don't agree on your leadership/intangibles... those are things you can't really quantify or assess. Eliminate those two and you have a good breakdown.

I agree that this portion is subjective and can't be quantified by stats or numbers, but I looked at things like winning (playoffs) and the type of respect that the player garners from his teammates...all of them. The McInnis situation, while not James' fault, kind of hurt him here because James wasn't able to reach or redirect him. Most of that is due to the fact that Jeff probably looked at Lebron as a "kid" that hasn't won yet. I don't expect to see the same antics under the veteran leadership of Jason Kidd in New Jersey.

Thanks for your endorsement.

 

[TheAdmin]

Yeah, I'm not picking up a lot of what your putting down here. Anthony is a very poor shooter past 15 feet and you have his jumper ranked the best of the bunch? Has he even shot over 43%? Wade has no 3pt game to speak of and niether do Bosh or Ford. I'm going to assume you gave the nod to Anthony because you haven't seen him play?

Jumper
James
Wade
Anthony
Ford
Bosh

Bosh is very average rebounder at his position. Wade is a great rebounder playing 1/2. James is the best rebounding SF and after 3 games Ford is doing a great job.

Rebounding
Wade
James
Bosh
Ford
Anthony

Your playmaking rankings are ok I suppose....(given the limited number of games Ford has played) I would swap Wade with James. 7 assists out of the 3 hole is unmatched in this league.

Leadership is pretty much a joke if you put a guy who has only played 58 games in 2 years and not made the playoffs as your best guy. Anthony has a lot of problems but he flat out willed his team to the playoffs his rookie year. He gets the nod over James in my book right now.

Leadership
Wade
Anthony
Ford
James
Bosh

Your not exactly backing penetration up here TJ. Ford can get to the lane, but he is not very good at getting his shot to go in. He can pass just fine. He's shooting 39% from inside the paint, thats not a great finisher. He is quite good at finding the open man once he's inside.

Penetration
This is the best part of Wade's game and is clearly the best of the bunch. Followed by James then Ford, Bosh and Anthony.

Intangibles is ok...if we are going on the first 3 games of the year.

 

[TJ_4_CV31]

CDT,

Relax. :chuckles:

I did tell you that Lebron was the best overall of the bunch. Leadership and intangibles are generally subjective unless you apply some standard that would make them objective. In my case, I applied leading teams to the playoffs and managing the lockeroom. This definitely isn't the area that carries the most weight, but something that is certainly worth mentioning.

And your boy TJ has played more than 3 games in his career...58. He's off to a great start in essentially an extention of his rookie year. I think he's earning mention in that top 5 group from the draft class of 2003.

 

[cdt]

I'm not really concerned with playoffs being due to the success of the draftee in the 03 class. If you look at it, the year after Melo was drafted they had 25+ mill to spend and got Miller and a slew of players thrusting them into the playoffs...Same with Miami they splurged and brought in Lamar Odom and company too. And granted after spending all that money they were playoff teams...So saying LeBron isn't a leader is ludacris, notice how success comes after a large year in FA where each of the teams mentioned (den,mia,cle) So give LeBron some time to get accomidated with his new "weapons" before making a premature judgement.

 

[TJ_4_CV31]

Yeah, I'm not picking up a lot of what your putting down here. Anthony is a very poor shooter past 15 feet and you have his jumper ranked the best of the bunch? Has he even shot over 43%? Wade has no 3pt game to speak of and niether do Bosh or Ford. I'm going to assume you gave the nod to Anthony because you haven't seen him play?

Jumper
James
Wade
Anthony
Ford
Bosh

Bosh is very average rebounder at his position. Wade is a great rebounder playing 1/2. James is the best rebounding SF and after 3 games Ford is doing a great job.

Rebounding
Wade
James
Bosh
Ford
Anthony

Your playmaking rankings are ok I suppose....(given the limited number of games Ford has played) I would swap Wade with James. 7 assists out of the 3 hole is unmatched in this league.

Leadership is pretty much a joke if you put a guy who has only played 58 games in 2 years and not made the playoffs as your best guy. Anthony has a lot of problems but he flat out willed his team to the playoffs his rookie year. He gets the nod over James in my book right now.

Leadership
Wade
Anthony
Ford
James
Bosh

Your not exactly backing penetration up here TJ. Ford can get to the lane, but he is not very good at getting his shot to go in. He can pass just fine. He's shooting 39% from inside the paint, thats not a great finisher. He is quite good at finding the open man once he's inside.

Penetration
This is the best part of Wade's game and is clearly the best of the bunch. Followed by James then Ford, Bosh and Anthony.

Intangibles is ok...if we are going on the first 3 games of the year.

Don't want to knock your opinion but I'll point out the fact that TJ's rookie team was picked to be the second worst team in the league by many media outlets and that TJ DID lead his team to the playoffs (3 games over .500 when he went down after 55 games).

In terms of penetration, TJ's layup percentage is a bit higher than 39%...his jumper was broke his rookie year. I won't attempt to make an argument as far as who should sit in the 1 hole in this area....Wade is a great choice as well.

As far as my other rankings, I made no adjustments for "at his position", just pointing out who's better in general. By average, Bosh is the best rebounder.

 

[TJ_4_CV31]

I'm not really concerned with playoffs being due to the success of the draftee in the 03 class. If you look at it, the year after Melo was drafted they had 25+ mill to spend and got Miller and a slew of players thrusting them into the playoffs...Same with Miami they splurged and brought in Lamar Odom and company too. And granted after spending all that money they were playoff teams...So saying LeBron isn't a leader is ludacris, notice how success comes after a large year in FA where each of the teams mentioned (den,mia,cle) So give LeBron some time to get accomidated with his new "weapons" before making a premature judgement.

Well the past is what it is I suppose, that's why I pointed out that there are no more excuses now for this draft class. Cleveland, Denver, Miami, and Milwaukee have all of the pieces that they've asked for. It's too early to draw any conclusions, but by April, we'll know a lot more about the strengths of the top draft picks from 2003.

 

[TruBuckeye22]

where is Darko on this list????

every day i wake up i thank the good lord that Joe Dumars drafted Darko insted of Wade or Melo.

just looking over the draft from 03 http://nbadraft.net/2003.asp it wasn't especially strong from top to bottom.

my opinion on this topic is while he is off to a good start and looks like he will be a good PG until TJ Ford plays a full season at a all-star level he shouldn't be included on any lists with LeBron, Wade, or Melo. at this point in there careers i think Kirk Hinrick has proven more then Ford, although i would say TJ has a much higher upside. again not saying that Ford can't play but what has he done to be grouped with these guys other then be drafted with them?

on a side note everytime i look at the draft of 03 i just keep thinking Troy Bell should have been so much more.

 

[Dungong]

I think its a pretty good job. Before this season, no one had a good jumper. If you'll remember from the Olympic team, it was widely considered that Carmelo Anthony was one of the few shooters on the team. No one was calling Lebron or Wade a shooter, and this season's 5 games are too short a time to prove it. If Lebron keeps up the hot shooting beyond the arc, then we can probably put this guy at the top of the list.

TJ Ford is a little bit of a mystery. There is no doubt that he tore it up his rookie season and proved to be an excellent player. This year, he is making a very nice comeback leading what is going to be a good Bucks team this year. Would I call him a better penetrator than Lebron? I might give it to him, I haven't seen that much of TJ so I don't know, but in a set offense, Lebron doesn't penetrate that much, especially this season with so many ball handlers around him.

For leadership and intangibles, I'd say Cavs fans have a good idea about Lebron and TJ probably knows about TJ. Its really hard to compare because honestly, I'm not going to be watching Chris Bosh when hes not playing the Cavs, and to get a feel for the intangibles, you have to follow a team pretty closely.

 

[CleveRocks]

One area you did not rank them and that is in the ability to draw fans to the arena. Of those mentioned James is the hands down winner. Anthony could have been as effective, but for his personality meltdown last year.

Wade has gotten a lot of press, and certainly is playing some great basketball, but it is Shaq that puts fans in the stands in Miami.

As for Ford, he is playing like a house afire so far this year. He keeps doing that and he may eclipse Redd and Bogut as draws. We will take a closer look at the all-star break and see how it holds up. If Milwaukee makes the playoffs (as I expect they will) I think TJ will get more exposure.