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Darius Kinnard Garland

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What is Darius Garland's Ceiling?

  • One Time All-Star

    Votes: 16 9.9%
  • Occasional All-Star

    Votes: 19 11.8%
  • 5-6 Time All-Star

    Votes: 31 19.3%
  • Perennial All-Star

    Votes: 40 24.8%
  • An All-NBA Team or Two

    Votes: 22 13.7%
  • Perennial All-NBA Teamer

    Votes: 20 12.4%
  • Occasional MVP Candidate

    Votes: 11 6.8%
  • Perennial MVP Candidate

    Votes: 2 1.2%
  • MVP, Baby!

    Votes: 10 6.2%
  • Being Jim Chones

    Votes: 13 8.1%

  • Total voters
    161
I don’t care how good he is, I straight up refuse to draft a man named “Precious.”

I think Precious will be a really polarizing guy, not because of his name but because he is older. A handful of scouts are still skeptical of him because he played in HS at 19+......and he'll turn 20 his freshman year of college. But I just really believe in his talent. There are so few guys who are given the length, height and quickness he has on the wing. Even fewer who have those physical gifts AND a willingness to just play really hard at all times. He's honestly an NBA2K modern 3/4. He's quick enough to play the 3 at the NBA level, long enough and strong enough to play the 4. He and Whitney are the two most interesting potential two way players to me, prior to the season kicking off here. Memphis with Wiseman and Achiuwa will just be much watch all season.
 
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Just to be clear, it is considered by the Suns' franchise as the best trade they've ever made (or among the very best). It happened at the mid-point of the 1987-88 season. Price had completely out-played and overtaken KJ and Cavs brass figured they were trading Johnson possibly at the peak of his value because he was a high pick that hadn't panned out, but the tantalizing athleticism was there.

So here it was ...

Cavs Received
Larry Nance (28yo)
Mike Saunders (27yo)
1988 1st Round Pick (drafted Randolph Keys)

Suns Received
Kevin Johnson (21yo)
Mark West (27yo)
Tyrone Corbin (24yo)
1988 1st Round Pick (drafted Dan Majerle)
1988 2nd Round Pick (drafted Dean Garrett)
1989 2nd Round Pick (drafted Greg Grant)


Obviously, you look at this and it seems like a disaster for the Cavs. Larry Nance did end up becoming a legend here obviously and the Cavs teams that followed were undoubtedly the best in franchise history until LeBron arrived. Nance made two All-Star Games as a Cavalier (had made one in his 6.5 years with the Suns).

When you look at it as strictly as us acquiring one of the all-time Cavs greats, it lessens the hurt a bit. However, everything else hurts ... Mike Sanders was actually seen as a promising player entering his prime when he was traded here. Not an All-Star or anything, but maybe a good rotation piece. He spent 1.5 years here and his numbers dipped across the board.

Keys was obviously Keys (I think he was with the Cavs for 2 years iirc).


Meanwhile, it wasn't just that Kevin Johnson was a HOF'er, but this trade really kicked off the best run the Suns have ever had. The Suns were 28-54 at the end of the 1988 season. The season following that trade -- 1988-89 -- they were 58-24 and had done a complete 180-degree turn. They lost to the Lakers in the Western Conference Finals.

KJ averaged 20+ points, 12+ assists and 4+ rebounds per game on 51/10/88 splits in his first full season with the Suns. To put that in perspective, he was at 7 points and 3 assists on 46/22/82 splits off the bench in the 40 games he played with the Cavs prior to the trade. KJ was even better in that first playoff run, going for an efficient 24/12+ in 12 games.

Maybe he would've never been that good in a Cavs uniform and that is something we will never know, but it was absolutely stunning how immediate his transformation was. Cotton Fitzsimmons (Suns coach at the time) deserves a lot of credit there too in his first season as coach.

But, go down the line.... Majerle was a 3x All-Star and a Suns legend. Mark West and Ty Corbin were solid starters on those teams even after Barkley arrived in 1992-93 and they went to The Finals. They won 62 games that year and 54+ from the first full-year after the trade until 1996.


It certainly isn't the perfect comparison to trading one of our two highly drafted PGs, but I would say it should be a lesson in being patient with young guys ... especially young guys who are hard workers and who you've invested a high draft pick into.

Very thoughtful post. But do you think that the Cavs could have gone deep into the playoffs and been as good as those teams were with a Mark Price / Kevin Johnson backcourt? Two classic point guards who were the smallest guys on the court? How would that have worked?

I'd say this isn't a lesson on being patient with young guys, it's a lesson on how inconvenient it is to have two very good guys at the exact same position, because you end up having to trade one of them and don't get good value for it.
 
I don’t care how good he is, I straight up refuse to draft a man named “Precious.”

Wendell Moore is another to watch at Duke—see how he develops there. He’s very young, he’d only be 18 at next year’s draft.
I looked up "Precious" for basketball reasons. Found this instead:

Aqt9uik.jpg
 
I think Precious will be a really polarizing guy, not because of his name but because he is older. A handful of scouts are still skeptical of him because he played in HS at 19+......and he'll turn 20 his freshman year of college. But I just really believe in his talent. There are so few guys who are given the length, height and quickness he has on the wing. Even fewer who have those physical gifts AND a willingness to just play really hard at all times. He's honestly an NBA2K modern 3/4. He's quick enough to play the 3 at the NBA level, long enough and strong enough to play the 4. He and Whitney are the two most interesting potential two way players to me, prior to the season kicking off here. Memphis with Wiseman and Achiuwa will just be much watch all season.

A year or two older is OK. Tired of this model of drafting 18-19 year olds and having them hit physical and skills maturity right at the end of their rookie contract when you start having to pay them a ton of money if they're any good. Not many 18 year old Lebrons out there
 
Very thoughtful post. But do you think that the Cavs could have gone deep into the playoffs and been as good as those teams were with a Mark Price / Kevin Johnson backcourt? Two classic point guards who were the smallest guys on the court? How would that have worked?

I'd say this isn't a lesson on being patient with young guys, it's a lesson on how inconvenient it is to have two very good guys at the exact same position, because you end up having to trade one of them and don't get good value for it.
Partially agree. Do I think we would've ever made it far with two of the best point guards of their era on the same roster? Probably not. With that being said, KJ was so devastating with the ball in his hands, Price was an all-time great shooter and both both had amazing court vision. I think in today's NBA, you could find a way to make it work.

Positions were much more rigid in the 1980s and 1990s, though. Most SGs were in the 6-5 to 6-7 range, bigger than a lot of SFs in today's game. It was also much more physical and, by having two conventional big men on the floor at the same time as basically every team did in that era, the kind of pace and space that a KJ/Price combination would flourish in would be greatly diminished.

Beyond all of the inertia of that particular situation, you take a couple steps back and see the benefit of drafting both KJ and Price, even though KJ ended up being great somewhere else. The Cavs felt like those were the two best players available at the positions they were drafting in and they went with their instincts instead of looking at positional needs. I firmly believe that BPA is the way to approach a draft unless you have two players close in the potential you see in them and you use positional needs to push one past the other.

Mark Price was actually on the team before KJ, taken in the 1986 Draft (25th overall). There was no longterm answer at PG on the roster at that time so positional arguments for that pick are moot and Price obviously ended up being one of the top players in that draft. The only guy who went after Price that even has an argument for being better was Dennis Rodman taken 27th and he was probably one of the biggest wildcard picks in NBA Draft history alongside Antetokounmpo and maybe one or two others.

Kevin Johnson ended up being arguably the BPA where we took him (#7 overall) a year later. I only say 'arguably' because Reggie Miller was taken a few picks later but you can debate those two in terms of greatness. Price hadn't asserted himself as the obvious PG of the future and, there we sat, with Kevin Johnson staring us in the face.

You take the best guys and figure out the rest later. It ended up working out for the Suns, but getting Nance wasn't a horrible consolation prize. Taking Reggie Miller would have made even less positional sense since Ron Harper was our best player in those years.

So we ended up taking the two BPsA and sticking with the one that seemed to fit the team best. A little hasty in moving on from KJ, sure, but it worked out for all parties in the end, making it a solid draft strategy.

In that same way, I liked the Garland pick because I think they went into the pick with the same mindset... get the best players available and things will work themselves out later.
 
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Partially agree. Do I think we would've ever made it far with two of the best point guards of their era on the same roster? Probably not. With that being said, KJ was so devastating with the ball in his hands, Price was an all-time great shooter and both both had amazing court vision. I think in today's NBA, you could find a way to make it work.

We had Harper at SG and no PF. Pre injury Harper was borderline all star. In todays game you still make the trade given the roster we had.
 
Partially agree. Do I think we would've ever made it far with two of the best point guards of their era on the same roster? Probably not. With that being said, KJ was so devastating with the ball in his hands, Price was an all-time great shooter and both both had amazing court vision. I think in today's NBA, you could find a way to make it work.

Positions were much more rigid in the 1980s and 1990s, though. Most SGs were in the 6-5 to 6-7 range, bigger than a lot of SFs in today's game. It was also much more physical and, by having two conventional big men on the floor at the same time as basically every team did in that era, the kind of pace and space that a KJ/Price combination would flourish in would be greatly diminished.

Beyond all of the inertia of that particular situation, you take a couple steps back and see the benefit of drafting both KJ and Price, even though KJ ended up being great somewhere else. The Cavs felt like those were the two best players available at the positions they were drafting in and they went with their instincts instead of looking at positional needs. I firmly believe that BPA is the way to approach a draft unless you have two players close in the potential you see in them and you use positional needs to push one past the other.

Mark Price was actually on the team before KJ, taken in the 1986 Draft (25th overall). There was no longterm answer at PG on the roster at that time so positional arguments for that pick are moot and Price obviously ended up being one of the top players in that draft. The only guy who went after Price that even has an argument for being better was Dennis Rodman taken 27th and he was probably one of the biggest wildcard picks in NBA Draft history alongside Antetokounmpo and maybe one or two others.

Kevin Johnson ended up being arguably the BPA where we took him (#7 overall) a year later. I only say 'arguably' because Reggie Miller was taken a few picks later but you can debate those two in terms of greatness. Price hadn't asserted himself as the obvious PG of the future and, there we sat, with Kevin Johnson staring us in the face.

You take the best guys and figure out the rest later. It ended up working out for the Suns, but getting Nance wasn't a horrible consolation prize. Taking Reggie Miller would have made even less positional sense since Ron Harper was our best player in those years.

So we ended up taking the two BPsA and sticking with the one that seemed to fit the team best. A little hasty in moving on from KJ, sure, but it worked out for all parties in the end, making it a solid draft strategy.

In that same way, I liked the Garland pick because I think they went into the pick with the same mindset... get the best players available and things will work themselves out later.
I remember the 1987 draft well and the Cavs wanted a point guard, as Price hadn’t shown himself as the point guard of the future yet. UNC’s Kenny Smith is the guy the Cavs desperately wanted, but he went before our pick, to the Kings. At #7 the Cavs then took the next best point guard, Kevin Johnson from California, who some saw as a reach at the time.

Price developing, as he did, really came as an unexpected development and, eventually, led to the KJ-Nance trade. The Cavs definitely gave up a lot, but it was a fairly balanced trade.

The trade that killed the Cavs was essentially giving Ron Harper away for Ferry. I heard the Cavs were concerned about the crowd Harper was running in and feared that he was involved with drugs, so they got rid of him. To make matters worse, the Cavs then gave Ferry, who Embry thought could be like Larry Bird, that 10 year $30 million contract. We all know how that turned out.
 
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I remember the 1987 draft well and the Cavs wanted a point guard, as Price hadn’t shown himself as the point guard of the future yet. UNC’s Kenny Smith is the guy the Cavs desperately wanted, but he went before our pick, to the Kings. At #7 the Cavs then took the next best point guard, Kevin Johnson from California, who some saw as a reach at the time.

Price developing, as he did, really came as an unexpected development and, eventually, led to the KJ-Nance trade. The Cavs definitely gave up a lot, but it was a fairly balanced trade.

The trade that killed the Cavs was essentially giving Ron Harper away for Ferry. I heard the Cavs were concerned about the crowd Harper was running in and feared that he was involved with drugs, so they got rid of him. To make matters worse, the Cavs then gave Ferry, who Embry thought could be like Larry Bird, that 10 year $30 million contract. We all know how that turned out.


No we didnt give him away for Ferry we gave them 2 first round picks as a sweetener. Has to be the worst CAVS trade of all time. I remember thinking at the time that there was some mistake that we were supposed to get the 2 picks. I was very depressed for a long time after that trade and to this day do not understand it.
 
No we didnt give him away for Ferry we gave them 2 first round picks as a sweetener. Has to be the worst CAVS trade of all time. I remember thinking at the time that there was some mistake that we were supposed to get the 2 picks. I was very depressed for a long time after that trade and to this day do not understand it.

I agree. It was a horrendous trade! I remember Reggie Williams was a part of that deal, coming to the Cavs, and there was some hope he could resurrect his career here. He tanked and obviously Ferry did too.
 
I agree. It was a horrendous trade! I remember Reggie Williams was a part of that deal, coming to the Cavs, and there was some hope he could resurrect his career here. He tanked and obviously Ferry did too.

Rumors also speculated the undesirables Ronny was hanging out with was Gordon Gund's daughter. It would make sense has he was moved lightning quick that year.
 
I think today’s NBA Price and KJ would have worked.
 
I am going to say something different- i think the nba will change where majority teams will use 2 small guards and not traditional PG and SG (we do see some do). The game has adopted that shooting 3s are more efficient than those long 2s and mid range game unless they move back the 3. You do not need a traditional big down low but you need an athletic big who can eventually hit from outside and play defense. It is becoming more quickness, able to shoot outside, driving to the lane, being a threat offensively, and stretching the floor. The main superstars are always guards or a SF who can hit it from outside or be a threat on offense.

I think Sexton and Garland can be great together and make them both better players and we will see more of that in the NBA.
 

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