Game Thread | 2021-2022 Season | Game #16 | Cavs @ Nets | Nov. 17, 2021

[KilgoreTrout]

That lineup couldn’t stop a group of first graders crossing the street.

Fair enough.

 

[Dr. Claw]

Late. No reason for this team to even be in the game after being down over 20 at the half.
Reading the replies above, there are improvements to be made. But I was happy to see Kevin Love as engaged as he was. I seriously haven't seen him fake a 3 and go to the hoop with that kind of vigor in forever.

Maaaaaaan... get our guys back.

As for the next game: Fuck The Warriors.

 

[BimboColesHair]

Not every player takes the same path.

Right now, the most I've seen out of Okoro was when he was the secondary creator and forced to be assertive in that role. That's when he's been at this very best.

And unless he finds that and expands on that, it's gonna be REALLY hard for him to be a positive contributor. Because unlike Butler and Kawhi, he doesn't have all-world defense capabilities that those two largely possessed almost immediately. And that's mostly physical limitations. A 6'4 guard just isn't gonna be able to impact the game defensively enough to make up for that lack of offense. Not the way Kawhi and Butler could.

We'll see.

Right now I worry about two things:

1) That Okoro is gonna be left in the dust when this team is healthy and really trying to win. Already I'm struggling to see a role for him going forward. He should be behind Sexton. He should be behind Cedi. So you're looking at some spot minutes here and there in small ball lineups.

Or, the inverse:

2) That, because of his love for the kid, JBB insists on continuing to force Okoro into the lineup to the detriment of a team that is now capable of winning a lot of ball games. When, instead, he could use this time right now to help turn him into a player capable of contributing to winning basketball, which he currently is not.

If I were running the team, I'd either force JBB to develop the kid or look to move him.

Once the team is healthy, if I still believe in him, I'd send him to Canton.

I don’t think he’s going to be left in the dust at all.

I am literally going back and watching every game so far judging their offense Rich, you know this.

At full strength they were running plays to get Okoro either good clean looks at 3 or a favorable matchup to slash into the paint and either finish or create for his teammates. You know, the 2 things he was somewhat decent at coming into this season.

They were running plays for Isaac Okoro on offense when they had Mobley, Sexton, and Garland on the floor.

He’s not going to get left in the dust.

People see what they want to see when they watch these games though.

 

[2 For The Brew]

Come on man, it's not this serious. We're just all here discussing ball.

It's in the Cavs best interest that Okoro develops into a useful NBA rotation player.

We disagree on how best to go about that and that's ok.

He is a useful NBA rotation player. He’s averaging over 26 mpg on a team with a winning record. He has a lot of improvement to do but he is contributing. With all of the injuries and personnel changes last season and this season it’s been hard on everyone.

 

[Rich]

This is the last one then I'm out:

Right now, as he's currently playing and the way he's currently being used, Okoro shouldn't be seeing minutes once the team is fully healthy.

He shrinks the court, he puts no one on their heels, and his defensive presence doesn't make up for those issues most of the time.

Even tonight, he's out there to guard James Harden, but at the same time he's making life so, so much more difficult for Garland and Rubio to operate.


So if they're not going to try and really develop him over these next couple of weeks while the team is banged up, then they need to send him to the Charge.


Because the Okoro we see right now should not be getting more than 10 minutes a night when the team is healthy.

 

[Rich]

He is a useful NBA rotation player. He’s averaging over 26 mpg on a team with a winning record. He has a lot of improvement to do but he is contributing. With all of the injuries and personnel changes last season and this season it’s been hard on everyone.

The team actually has a losing record this season with Okoro. 4-5.

But that's not really important. Dean Wade is currently averaging a ton of minutes too, and when this team WAS healthy he wasn't touching the court. Okoro is playing big minutes right now because of necessity. That doesn't mean he's useful or impacting the game.

 

[BimboColesHair]

This is the last one then I'm out:

Right now, as he's currently playing and the way he's currently being used, Okoro shouldn't be seeing minutes once the team is fully healthy.

He shrinks the court, he puts no one on their heels, and his defensive presence doesn't make up for those issues most of the time.

Even tonight, he's out there to guard James Harden, but at the same time he's making life so, so much more difficult for Garland and Rubio to operate.


So if they're not going to try and really develop him over these next couple of weeks while the team is banged up, then they need to send him to the Charge.


Because the Okoro we see right now should not be getting more than 10 minutes a night when the team is healthy.

My last one too and I’m out.

Do you really think 4 games worth of experience is going to get him to the point where this isn’t the case anymore? Cause 4 games is all we’re getting over the next 2 weeks. Allen and Lauri will be back by then, and Mobley should be close if the timeline is correct and he has no setbacks.

I don’t think it is.

Get the dude hoisting jumpers all practice long, before games, after games, on Christmas Day. Him becoming a viable shooting threat does more for his offensive development and fit within the roster than potentially 4 games of here’s the ball, do something with it.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

I disagree boobs.

At anytime to stop the bleeding, Brooklyn could and did feed Aldridge at the free throw line extended and we could do nothing about it.

He was their leading scorers by design man. They actually put the ball in James Johnson's hands late when Harden didn't have it to see if he could be counted on as a bench initiator.

Not KD, not Mills, not Blake... James Johnson.

They were setting their chess board up, preparing for a playoff run and we were playing checkers trying to win an unwinnable game when we could have been doing the same which would have included force feeding Okoro and making him assert himself.

But on to the Warriors tomorrow night.

I bet one of Otto Porter, Kuminga, Poole, Lee or Bjelica is schematically featured in the clutch to prepare for a playoff contribution

I just dont see it that way.

The Nets were not playing chess in blowing a 20+ point lead to have to actually play to beat an injury depleted Cavs team. They went to Aldridge because he was open, sure. But most of what Aldridge did at that point was just playing off of their stars or using his size to crash the offensive glass and get putbacks.

And preparing a veteran with an established skill set to play a certain number of sets for playoff preparation is different than benching the guys we have to give Okoro the keys to the offense and not care about losing total control of the game over it.

You know I am PRO getting Okoro in spots to handle the ball and navigate through the defenses with his slashing abilities, but to me that can happen without sacrificing our chance to win any specific ball game. Once he shows he can slice and dice his way to the bucket for 5 minutes in a row in the 2nd quarter against backups then maybe we can consider some 4th quarter reps.

I am with you on sending him to the charge, but I'm not for hurting our chances to win any ballgame. Okoro, IMO, had plenty of time with the ball tonight but he continues to not take advantage of the reps he does get. In the 4th he had an isolation drive from the top of the key that ended in a really weak leaning layup with his defender all over him that he tried to put in off the glass but missed his angle entirely. He's just not beating anyone off of the dribble. He is so raw...I think we need him to gain confidence so in ways we should use him as a perimeter TT. Maybe take a page out of Marcus Smarts handbook, to be honest.

Heres my question for Okoro...where is his "spot" on the floor? He has the ball, he has spacing...shot clock ticking down...what is this kids plan even in that situation besides a wild driving layup across his body? What SHOULD his spot be? He has a lot to figure out before I would even find it potentially helpful to give him the keys for extended periods. I just think he should first find a way to contribute...because I think he is capable of that...and then build on whatever that looks like. Thats his best path to long term success.

 

[narbar32]

I just dont see it that way.

The Nets were not playing chess in blowing a 20+ point lead to have to actually play to beat an injury depleted Cavs team. They went to Aldridge because he was open, sure. But most of what Aldridge did at that point was just playing off of their stars or using his size to crash the offensive glass and get putbacks.

And preparing a veteran with an established skill set to play a certain number of sets for playoff preparation is different than benching the guys we have to give Okoro the keys to the offense and not care about losing total control of the game over it.

You know I am PRO getting Okoro in spots to handle the ball and navigate through the defenses with his slashing abilities, but to me that can happen without sacrificing our chance to win any specific ball game. Once he shows he can slice and dice his way to the bucket for 5 minutes in a row in the 2nd quarter against backups then maybe we can consider some 4th quarter reps.

I am with you on sending him to the charge, but I'm not for hurting our chances to win any ballgame. Okoro, IMO, had plenty of time with the ball tonight but he continues to not take advantage of the reps he does get. In the 4th he had an isolation drive from the top of the key that ended in a really weak leaning layup with his defender all over him that he tried to put in off the glass but missed his angle entirely. He's just not beating anyone off of the dribble. He is so raw...I think we need him to gain confidence so in ways we should use him as a perimeter TT. Maybe take a page out of Marcus Smarts handbook, to be honest.

Heres my question for Okoro...where is his "spot" on the floor? He has the ball, he has spacing...shot clock ticking down...what is this kids plan even in that situation besides a wild driving layup across his body? What SHOULD his spot be? He has a lot to figure out before I would even find it potentially helpful to give him the keys for extended periods. I just think he should first find a way to contribute...because I think he is capable of that...and then build on whatever that looks like. Thats his best path to long term success.

Damn bro say it one more time for the folks in the back

 

[DirtyDan]

Just because of the attrition on offense, getting Okoro more opportunities to attack maybe one of the Cavs best potential ways to generate points and ball movement. Okoro can drive in a straight line with help from a screen and either kick to a shooter or punish the help defense at the rim.

It seems our offense has turned into Rubio and Garland playing hero ball or some scrub takes a bad, most likely contested shot. Get this man some screens and let him go down hill. He's strong and able to take contact. Fucking use him for something. 8 points in 40 minutes is ridiculous.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

I just dont see it that way.

The Nets were not playing chess in blowing a 20+ point lead to have to actually play to beat an injury depleted Cavs team. They went to Aldridge because he was open, sure. But most of what Aldridge did at that point was just playing off of their stars or using his size to crash the offensive glass and get putbacks.

And preparing a veteran with an established skill set to play a certain number of sets for playoff preparation is different than benching the guys we have to give Okoro the keys to the offense and not care about losing total control of the game over it.

You know I am PRO getting Okoro in spots to handle the ball and navigate through the defenses with his slashing abilities, but to me that can happen without sacrificing our chance to win any specific ball game. Once he shows he can slice and dice his way to the bucket for 5 minutes in a row in the 2nd quarter against backups then maybe we can consider some 4th quarter reps.

I am with you on sending him to the charge, but I'm not for hurting our chances to win any ballgame. Okoro, IMO, had plenty of time with the ball tonight but he continues to not take advantage of the reps he does get. In the 4th he had an isolation drive from the top of the key that ended in a really weak leaning layup with his defender all over him that he tried to put in off the glass but missed his angle entirely. He's just not beating anyone off of the dribble. He is so raw...I think we need him to gain confidence so in ways we should use him as a perimeter TT. Maybe take a page out of Marcus Smarts handbook, to be honest.

Heres my question for Okoro...where is his "spot" on the floor? He has the ball, he has spacing...shot clock ticking down...what is this kids plan even in that situation besides a wild driving layup across his body? What SHOULD his spot be? He has a lot to figure out before I would even find it potentially helpful to give him the keys for extended periods. I just think he should first find a way to contribute...because I think he is capable of that...and then build on whatever that looks like. Thats his best path to long term success.

I'm not advocating throwing games or coaching down.

I think where you and I differ on this, is if we really felt this game was winnable (it wasn't) on the backs of Garland/Rubio high pick n rolls against one of the best teams in the East and what the value that would bring to us in "learning to win" or establishing a winning culture with our core moving forward (none, just like the Sexton iso BK wins last year, weren't sustainable nor inclusive to contract chasing Drummond or burgeoning playmaker Garland because 3 out of 5 of our core is inactive tonight and one of that core is playing like he's lost).

To me, unlocking Okoro as a confident slashing guard who can play-make for others as the third offensive guy after Garland and Mobley with the starters, is the wildcard for raising our ceiling this year.

I always hated LeBron's passive aggressive bullshit, but here is where I ultimately respect LeBron and the way he did what he did in playing the macro/long-game throughout a NBA season for the 15 & 16 playoff runs that led to our first title and probably more had Durant not undermined it all.

Let's use Brons first season back where he had to fight the Kyrie vs Dion imbalance and Blatt's equal opportunity Princeton offense to break those guards bad habits if they were going to contribute come playoff time, for example:

He knew he needed to weed out the bad habits and over-inflated self confidence in Kyrie and/or Dion in that early 2014 return season if he wanted a long playoff run. He tried for weeks to bring to their attention that pounding the rock and breaking the half court ball movement to iso might win you meaningless games in the winter with Kyrie and Dion iso-ing to 20 pt scoring nights with no assists and low efficiency in hard fought wins against inferior teams, but he knew better that putting them in position to sink or swim having to play the game in a way that led to contributing to team ball in the playoffs, was more important... As much as it would enable the team to win easier against inferior teams and establish playoff winning habits.

You could say he sacrificed a few games in December of 14. I remember them like it was yesterday (specifically the Jazz-no assists for Kyrie game)

We lost games we shouldn't have loss before he took a few weeks off, and then he returned once we traded Dion and put Shumpert and JR next to Kyrie to play defense and keep the ball moving to find open shots (shump couldn't hit them but JR could so he eventually started).

The parallel I'm drawing here to Okoro's development is, if Bron were here now, he would recognize (without the pressure of winning each night for job security that JBB and Koby are probably under) that Okoro sinking or swimming as a playmaker from the wing instead of settling as a 3D hot potato 4th/5th option on the floor, is the difference between making the playoffs and really having a chance to win against the top 3-4 teams in the East if we are fully healthy. Either that or he'd throw a bitch fit until we traded Okoro for Kent Bazemore or some vet with a much lower ceiling who could help him won now, but I digress.

Okoro is the key. Not Rubio and Garland PNRs.

It's not Garland getting even more assertive and scoring 40, or Mobley being even more efficient or just getting healthy... It's Okoro asserting himself on offense and becoming a threat to balance his above average perimeter defense and freeing up Sexton to return as a unleashed bench scorer like Clarkson.

Letting Kyrie score 30+ with no assists in a loss to the Jazz in a early December 14 was the equivalent of tweaking your lineup so that Okoro is the secondary ball handler tonight or tomorrow who must swim so the team can win while depleted. Doesn't mean we're conceding these games if Okoro HAS to assert himself so he doesn't let his brothers down.

Blatt wanted that win so he called Kys number all night. Kyrie wanted that win that night too so he kept shooting. Only one guy was playing chess that night... Bron.

LeBron wanted the kid to understand that using his iso talent to create easier shots for the other 4 guys would make the difference when they really needed that from him... 5 assists in Game 5 of a 2-2 East semis against Chicago later that year. And that was coming off a stinker Kyrie played against Chicago in game 4. He would have been iso-gunning had he won the Utah game with no assists and believed he was solely capable of winning games like Kobe each night.

Back to today... We weren't winning any of these 4 games (2x nets, warriors or last one against suns) with this depleted roster unless Okoro gave us March of '21 32 PT 3-4 3pt 9-9 ft Suns game Okoro from last year.

No over reliance on Rubio, Garland or Love with Ed Davis playing 25 mins was going to change that this week so let's do what's healthiest for this team this year and get Okoro back in the driver seat now before Lauri and Allen come back and require touches to get going again, and then Mobley makes it possible for him to disappear as a unreliable offensive player again for the rest of the season.

End rant.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

Loved the way the Cavs were down 23 in the 3rd and fought back to within 7 points with five minutes to go despite being hopelessly outgunned. If Garland hadn't gone 0-for-6 from deep in the first half this game could have been really interesting. If you told me before the game that they would miss 33 shots from deep and only lose by 10 I would not have believed it.

As for Okoro, he does not have the skills he needs to succeed. He has no 3-point shot, no mid-range jumper, no floater in the lane, and he doesn't dribble well. He also tends to get called for charges. His only offensive skill is attacking the rim when he has a clear lane.

The Cavs stated recently that Okoro's best position is the 2. That works well because they have Mark, Cedi, and Windler at the 3, although Mark may be moved back to the 4 after Love leaves.

I agree with the poster who said Okoro should be groomed as a Marcus Smart type guard. Smart is 6'4", 220, same as Okoro. He is a tremendous defensive player, if I'm not mistaken, who averages 10.2 ppg in just under 30 minutes a game for his career. His career averages are 37.5% from the field and 31.8% from the line - not impressive at all. But he's in his eighth season, all with the same team, and has started 242 out of 463 games.

He's also started 32 post-season games.

IOW, Smart is a player the Celtics are very happy with and he averages 30 minutes per game, whether he starts or not.

I think Okoro's upside is Marcus Smart, but he needs a lot of practice. He needs to spend as much time as possible in the gym working on his catch-and-shoot on 3's, his ball-handling, and finishing at the rim against bigs.

My theory is that in high school and his one year of college Okoro was so much stronger and quicker than the competition that he didn't need much in the way of outside shooting or handles. Not any more. In the NBA he's a little guy and little guys need skills. Okoro needs hundreds of hours of practice on 3's, mid-range jumpers, and a floater in the lane. His playing time should be directly tied to his progress in those areas.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

I think Okoro's upside is Marcus Smart, but he needs a lot of practice. He needs to spend as much time as possible in the gym working on his catch-and-shoot on 3's, his ball-handling, and finishing at the rim against bigs.

Good call Wham. This might be the first time I'm seeing a Okoro/Smart comparison. I think I've been so locked in on him being on a Iggy/Butler trajectory that I didn't really account for the smaller measurements/reach and the stronger build after this offseason that makes him even more Smart.

Here are Smart's career numbers:



And Okoro's so far:



How do they compare? It's early but the big statistical difference here is Smart has always been willing to shoot about 2 more 3PA per game and averaged about 3 more assists per game. His first two years were Brad Stevens 1st winning seasons where he backed up Rondo as primary PG when he came on the floor and the next year he backed up Isaiah Thomas before they moved him to SG when they drafted Terry Rozier for his 3rd yr.

Brad Stevens was known both at Butler and at this level for Box Sets (quick hitters requiring crisp offensive execution and shots taken early in shot clock as soon as offensive players are open/have a good look...very little dribbling) and Pace and Space transition off defense, so not a lot of high PNR or much isolation action at all, for context of what was being asked of him when he came on the floor in the first few years as they started making playoff runs with Isaiah Thomas, Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder and then Al Horford for that last year when Isaiah broke his hip.

 

[Man Called X]

I'm not advocating throwing games or coaching down.

I think where you and I differ on this, is if we really felt this game was winnable (it wasn't) on the backs of Garland/Rubio high pick n rolls against one of the best teams in the East and what the value that would bring to us in "learning to win" or establishing a winning culture with our core moving forward (none, just like the Sexton iso BK wins last year, weren't sustainable nor inclusive to contract chasing Drummond or burgeoning playmaker Garland because 3 out of 5 of our core is inactive tonight and one of that core is playing like he's lost).

To me, unlocking Okoro as a confident slashing guard who can play-make for others as the third offensive guy after Garland and Mobley with the starters, is the wildcard for raising our ceiling this year.

I always hated LeBron's passive aggressive bullshit, but here is where I ultimately respect LeBron and the way he did what he did in playing the macro/long-game throughout a NBA season for the 15 & 16 playoff runs that led to our first title and probably more had Durant not undermined it all.

Let's use Brons first season back where he had to fight the Kyrie vs Dion imbalance and Blatt's equal opportunity Princeton offense to break those guards bad habits if they were going to contribute come playoff time, for example:

He knew he needed to weed out the bad habits and over-inflated self confidence in Kyrie and/or Dion in that early 2014 return season if he wanted a long playoff run. He tried for weeks to bring to their attention that pounding the rock and breaking the half court ball movement to iso might win you meaningless games in the winter with Kyrie and Dion iso-ing to 20 pt scoring nights with no assists and low efficiency in hard fought wins against inferior teams, but he knew better that putting them in position to sink or swim having to play the game in a way that led to contributing to team ball in the playoffs, was more important... As much as it would enable the team to win easier against inferior teams and establish playoff winning habits.

You could say he sacrificed a few games in December of 14. I remember them like it was yesterday (specifically the Jazz-no assists for Kyrie game)

We lost games we shouldn't have loss before he took a few weeks off, and then he returned once we traded Dion and put Shumpert and JR next to Kyrie to play defense and keep the ball moving to find open shots (shump couldn't hit them but JR could so he eventually started).

The parallel I'm drawing here to Okoro's development is, if Bron were here now, he would recognize (without the pressure of winning each night for job security that JBB and Koby are probably under) that Okoro sinking or swimming as a playmaker from the wing instead of settling as a 3D hot potato 4th/5th option on the floor, is the difference between making the playoffs and really having a chance to win against the top 3-4 teams in the East if we are fully healthy. Either that or he'd throw a bitch fit until we traded Okoro for Kent Bazemore or some vet with a much lower ceiling who could help him won now, but I digress.

Okoro is the key. Not Rubio and Garland PNRs.

It's not Garland getting even more assertive and scoring 40, or Mobley being even more efficient or just getting healthy... It's Okoro asserting himself on offense and becoming a threat to balance his above average perimeter defense and freeing up Sexton to return as a unleashed bench scorer like Clarkson.

Letting Kyrie score 30+ with no assists in a loss to the Jazz in a early December 14 was the equivalent of tweaking your lineup so that Okoro is the secondary ball handler tonight or tomorrow who must swim so the team can win while depleted. Doesn't mean we're conceding these games if Okoro HAS to assert himself so he doesn't let his brothers down.

Blatt wanted that win so he called Kys number all night. Kyrie wanted that win that night too so he kept shooting. Only one guy was playing chess that night... Bron.

LeBron wanted the kid to understand that using his iso talent to create easier shots for the other 4 guys would make the difference when they really needed that from him... 5 assists in Game 5 of a 2-2 East semis against Chicago later that year. And that was coming off a stinker Kyrie played against Chicago in game 4. He would have been iso-gunning had he won the Utah game with no assists and believed he was solely capable of winning games like Kobe each night.

Back to today... We weren't winning any of these 4 games (2x nets, warriors or last one against suns) with this depleted roster unless Okoro gave us March of '21 32 PT 3-4 3pt 9-9 ft Suns game Okoro from last year.

No over reliance on Rubio, Garland or Love with Ed Davis playing 25 mins was going to change that this week so let's do what's healthiest for this team this year and get Okoro back in the driver seat now before Lauri and Allen come back and require touches to get going again, and then Mobley makes it possible for him to disappear as a unreliable offensive player again for the rest of the season.

End rant.

If the only way this team becomes good is Okoro finally showing ANY signs of growth, we're even more fucked than I realized. The kid is fucking terrible. There's no getting around it. He can't dribble, he can't shoot, and his defense is vastly overrated. I hope his career in China works out for him, because he's not an NBA player.

 

[avs2000]

Absolutely.

Great effort. If we had allen, mobley and Lauri we win this game. period. Will not even bring Sexton up.
Nets are supposed to be one of the beasts in the East. We will this game with 2-3 of our injured playing.
Kind of scary