Game Thread | 2021-2022 Season | Game #65 | Cavs @ Pacers | March 8, 2022 | 7:00 p.m.

[bob2the2nd]

After Stevens blocked the shot with the score tied and 14 seconds to go the Pacers fouled Garland intentionally. Was that a massive mind fart as Chris Fedor stated in his column? Or did they figure their chances of hitting a game-winning 3-pointer following an inbounds pass in their court with 14 seconds left gave them a better chance than playing defense and letting the Cavs take the final shot?

I think someone posted here that the Pacers coach was seen yelling at the guy that committed the foul. However if you go back and watch it looks like two pacers tried to foul Garland.... So I would believe either one

 

[Prof123]

The challenge rule is too stupid. I would go further and say they need to have at least 1 challenge every quarter. This is not football, plays happen every 10 seconds or so.

I would go even further. I think that any time you want to use a timeout to challenge a call, you should be able to do so. If the challenge is successful, then you get the timeout back.

 

[KilgoreTrout]

I agree I like their team, so much shooting. Most of their bigs can shoot too apart from Jackson who looks like a handy energy big.

Turner, Jackson, Smith are nice young bigs.
Haliburton is a stud.
Hield, Duarte can shoot.
Probably need to draft a SF with their first

Stunned that Myles Turner is only 25. Seems like he been around for YEARS, and is as old as God.

 

[bob2the2nd]

I would go even further. I think that any time you want to use a timeout to challenge a call, you should be able to do so. If the challenge is successful, then you get the timeout back.

nah. If thats what you are going to do, then you have to lose the timeout. Otherwise thats way too many timeouts in a game.

edit: But i do think any full time out should be challenge worthy. I was watching sunday's game and there was a very blatant missed call in the 2nd quarter that should have been an obvious and easy review and over turn (i dont even remember what it was), but pretty sure it wasnt even foul related. Basically it would have just resulted in the cavs getting the ball back. However no reason to challenge something that early in the game. It would have been real nice to get the ball back.

The other one which was obvious was the goal tend on Cedi's floater (Sundays game). Ball was over the rim and clearly coming down and all 3 refs just looked at each other... But once again so early in the game why challenge

 

[jjvors]

Stunned that Myles Turner is only 25. Seems like he been around for YEARS, and is as old as God.

Wait til Mobley is 25. He'll be dominant like Giannis.

 

[KevinLoveFan]

Wait til Mobley is 25. He'll be dominant like Giannis.

With all our love of Mobley, I'm reminded of this game thread from last season:

Game Thread | 2020-21 Season | Game $70 | Celtics @ Cavs | May 12, 2021

Three games to go and the Cavs are tied for the second worst record with two other teams. Don't screw this up now. The Celtics are 35-34 and in 7th place. They are locked in to the play-in tournament with no chance to move up to 6th. Since Jalen Brown was lost for the season they are 1-3...

realcavsfans.com

I vividly recall how Love had a great game, and almost everyone here was so mad because it was assumed the win would lead us to picking a lower pick. I bit my tongue over all the assumptive overreaction, and only posted a couple of harmless posts in the thread, but it was hard at the time because I wanted to slap so many people at RCF then.

Turns out we ended up with Mobley after all. Funny stuff to look back on now.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

This.

When a guy is your teams coach there is always someone better out there. Just the way fans work.

Just go back and look at the Tyronn Lue thread on this site for evidence.

Yet now the guy is one of the most well respected coaches in the league known for his in game adjustments, ATOs, and mid-series adjustments.

Kicker is he was doing all that shit while he was here at a high level too.

It’s easy to pick on coaches as the reason a team struggles, or gives up runs to the other team, or goes through a cold spell. Why you see head coach complaints in every sport in the world when teams struggle…because it’s easy to do, as opposed to talking about what is more likely to be the reality of the situation, one that is more complex and encompasses more of the organization as a whole.

Coach bashing has always and will always be a lazy take for me on a game-to-game basis.

I always defended Ty Lue big time on here. Because he had those key elite coach skills that could help lead your team to playoff success. ATO, in game adjustments, and in series adjustments.

My problem with JBB is that he, to me, is one of the worst coaches in the league at drawing up ATO plays and I think he struggles mightily adjusting in game, on the fly. Therefore I worry mightily about him and his in-series adjustment potential.

In the other hand JBB has gotten this group to play harder than Ty Lue ever got any of his teams to play in the regular season. And he has done a wonderful job with player development and Ty Lue just doesn’t care about player development.

But when it comes down to who a team needs down the road when we are a true contending team with multiple elite talents in their prime…I think Bickerstaffs’ strengths become less useful and almost useless even especially in the playoffs where everyone plays hard the entire time and you need the elite ATOguys. The elite adjustment coaches to give yourself the best chance to win.

That’s why I say, Bickerstaff may be the right guy for the job today but IF we go out 2-3 years from now and underachieve in the playoffs a couple times…then it might be appropriate to look for a different kind of coach. This will be a very attractive job, that’s for sure.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

So JBB was a good coach when we were losing before this season but now that we’re winning he sucks.

I got nuttin.

In my eyes, JBB was and is a good developmental coach.

But now that we are winning, and have multiple young stat players…I think it’s natural to watch things through a different lens- yeah it’s nice we play hard and always fight to the end, but you start noticing things like…10-0 runs late in the game when you were up 8 with no timeout until you lost the lead. All we had to do was calm things down and draw up a counter to Garlands trap. When you have Garland leaving his feet to throw crazy passes to get out of a trap with nobody in the right position to help him, when you see him get the ball stolen by 3 guys, and you see this happen 3-4 times until we lose the lead…I have big questions. When you can’t seem to draw up a decent ATO play like ever…when your teams identity is defense and we’re giving up like 110-120 a night for weeks…when there are just so many questionable adjustments or lack of any adjustments at all….


Just makes me worry about him in the future and in the playoffs where playing hard doesn’t mean shit.

 

[buzzdog]

I always defended Ty Lue big time on here. Because he had those key elite coach skills that could help lead your team to playoff success. ATO, in game adjustments, and in series adjustments.

My problem with JBB is that he, to me, is one of the worst coaches in the league at drawing up ATO plays and I think he struggles mightily adjusting in game, on the fly. Therefore I worry mightily about him and his in-series adjustment potential.

In the other hand JBB has gotten this group to play harder than Ty Lue ever got any of his teams to play in the regular season. And he has done a wonderful job with player development and Ty Lue just doesn’t care about player development.

But when it comes down to who a team needs down the road when we are a true contending team with multiple elite talents in their prime…I think Bickerstaffs’ strengths become less useful and almost useless even especially in the playoffs where everyone plays hard the entire time and you need the elite ATOguys. The elite adjustment coaches to give yourself the best chance to win.

That’s why I say, Bickerstaff may be the right guy for the job today but IF we go out 2-3 years from now and underachieve in the playoffs a couple times…then it might be appropriate to look for a different kind of coach. This will be a very attractive job, that’s for sure.

I can agree with you on some points but we have a fundamental area of disagreement on this subject.

JBB is the Head Coach and he has a whole coaching staff at his command and disposal. Where is it written that the Head Coach must be the final authority and expert on every detail of managing every single aspect of the team? Why can't JBB continue with doing what he does, but have an assistant who specializes in JBB's areas of weakness?

I assume you'll say something like, JBB's ego won't allow it. I have a hard time believing it but if true I could support moving on to a different head coach. But, if I were Altman, I'd be having these kinds of conversations about how to improve in any and all ways possible for every aspect of the team, and this is something that should be on the table just like everything else should be on the table.

If as an organization there is honesty, transparency, self-evaluation and constructive criticism, I would think that such deficiencies would be identified and corrected by doing whatever is needed. I don't see it as an all or nothing proposition, where either JBB has to be perfect in every aspect of his job, or he needs to be fired. If that is the reality then I think Altman is the one who is the problem. He should be able to manage JBB and give him the help he needs to become the strongest possible organization.

Your approach seems to be kind of a helpless absolutism that people can't figure out and resolve such things in order to improve. I don't think intelligent people should operate that way, although I know sometimes they do. They need to do better. Recognize problem, communicate problem, resolve problem.

 

[RonG]

For those using Allen as an excuse for the poor rotations, you must think this issue is being brought up from just this last game, however i assure you its not.

The short 7-8 man rotation was an issue since the beginning. Then we started experiencing injuries and it derailed from there. @RchfldCavRaised pointed out how nice it was to see a 10 man rotation in the game even if it was due to Okoro getting into foul trouble. He was/is correct. It's a long season and the rotations should have been 10 from the beginning. Stevens and Wade and even recently Goodwin have all proven themselves as decent rotation players. Yet, they go DNP or less than 10 minutes per game, it really begs the question why? Its damn never negligent how Wade and Stevens have been used this season. Its frustrating as an knowledgeable basketball fan to know you need more than what that short 8 man rotation to make it through an 82 game season, and yet a professional coach just blows it off. I appreciate the loyalty he has shown players like Okoro, but when they traded for a clear upgrade like LeVert he should have moved Okoro to the bench.

Yes to have some play off success going forward this year it is important to have a decent back up for Garland, either Rondo or Goodwin, personally i would lean to Goodwin, at least he has first step and can still score. We also invested enough in LeVert, that he has to get worked in to a key roll. That role, if it is starting or being first man off the bench it needs to be clear and concise. We also need to know if LeVert is going to work going forward, before we extend him and commit to him past next season for another 3 to 5 years. Now I get it, both Rondo and LeVert have been hurt, but JB better make some quick choices and stick with them if the Cavs are serious about a play off run, versus just making the play offs. We still have a highly competitive squad even with all the injuries we have dealt with.

This team has been fun to watch, even with the mistakes, poor rotations, I think we are 2 more seasons and a real established offense from being real contenders that has been my take all season. I have tried to avoid the JB second guessing for the most part outside of the short rotations. If we are having these discussions at nauseum surely the professionals who run the Cavs are discussing these points as well, even if behind closed doors.

 

[KevinLoveFan]

I can agree with you on some points but we have a fundamental area of disagreement on this subject.

JBB is the Head Coach and he has a whole coaching staff at his command and disposal. Where is it written that the Head Coach must be the final authority and expert on every detail of managing every single aspect of the team? Why can't JBB continue with doing what he does, but have an assistant who specializes in JBB's areas of weakness?

I assume you'll say something like, JBB's ego won't allow it. I have a hard time believing it but if true I could support moving on to a different head coach. But, if I were Altman, I'd be having these kinds of conversations about how to improve in any and all ways possible for every aspect of the team, and this is something that should be on the table just like everything else should be on the table.

If as an organization there is honesty, transparency, self-evaluation and constructive criticism, I would think that such deficiencies would be identified and corrected by doing whatever is needed. I don't see it as an all or nothing proposition, where either JBB has to be perfect in every aspect of his job, or he needs to be fired. If that is the reality then I think Altman is the one who is the problem. He should be able to manage JBB and give him the help he needs to become the strongest possible organization.

Your approach seems to be kind of a helpless absolutism that people can't figure out and resolve such things in order to improve. I don't think intelligent people should operate that way, although I know sometimes they do. They need to do better. Recognize problem, communicate problem, resolve problem.

I tend to agree with Boobie's specific criticisms of JBB. That said, I do hope you're right in that the organization will address JBB's weaknesses going ahead. I'm inclined to think he won't be here in a couple or so years, but that's only IF he doesn't improve in the areas of criticism (lack of system in offense, questionable substitutions at times, poor management of challenges, etc.). If he does, then I certainly want him to remain the coach. He's been a great motivator, and we usually play tough defense thanks to his emphasis on that end.

 

[2 For The Brew]

With all our love of Mobley, I'm reminded of this game thread from last season:

Game Thread | 2020-21 Season | Game $70 | Celtics @ Cavs | May 12, 2021

Three games to go and the Cavs are tied for the second worst record with two other teams. Don't screw this up now. The Celtics are 35-34 and in 7th place. They are locked in to the play-in tournament with no chance to move up to 6th. Since Jalen Brown was lost for the season they are 1-3...

realcavsfans.com

I vividly recall how Love had a great game, and almost everyone here was so mad because it was assumed the win would lead us to picking a lower pick. I bit my tongue over all the assumptive overreaction, and only posted a couple of harmless posts in the thread, but it was hard at the time because I wanted to slap so many people at RCF then.

Turns out we ended up with Mobley after all. Funny stuff to look back on now.

We lost every game at the end of the season except that one. We were tanking more than Rommel and Patton put together. We won that one game with Love playing well and people completely lost their shit denouncing him.

The percentages on the ping pong balls were such that one place in the standings really isn't the difference maker it used to be but that didn't stop the rage.

 

[buzzdog]

I tend to agree with Boobie's specific criticisms of JBB. That said, I do hope you're right in that the organization will address JBB's weaknesses going ahead. I'm inclined to think he won't be here in a couple or so years, but that's only IF he doesn't improve in the areas of criticism (lack of system in offense, questionable substitutions at times, poor management of challenges, etc.). If he does, then I certainly want him to remain the coach. He's been a great motivator, and we usually play tough defense thanks to his emphasis on that end.

I agree with those criticisms as well. I especially agree with criticisms of JBB's short rotations, I think he should use more players every single game and keep them all fresher in order to stay aggressive.

I just don't agree that the only way to resolve these criticisms is to fire the head coach. I suppose it depends on if they value continuity. Is also depends on them operating with honesty, transparency, openness as an organization. Altman should be talking to him about the problem areas and what the Cavs expect as an organization. It just seems like it would be a simple solution to me.

I will say there's always a possibility that at some point JBB's style and message get stale and players start tuning him out. If that happens then it becomes a matter of human nature, that stuff is tricky and not easy to resolve. Or if JBB's ego gets in the way then that would indicate replacement. At that point changing personnel is the more direct solution. But not for fucking schemes after timeouts, etc. That should be easy, it's not rocket surgery.

 

[Cavatt]

JB is 42. He may not great on the fly adjustments, but he does make good in-between game adjustments. Just look at the way he contained(didn't stop) Embiid in that game. They changed it up and it worked.

The team seems to be able to adjust defensively better than offensively.

Hopefully, he has some time to get his feet wet and experience the playoffs before he gets fired. He and the young players both require seasoning. Maybe some close losses in the playoffs where poorly executed ATO's will get to him.

I am not going to complain a lot about the short rotations. He adjusts who he plays every game and he has shown he can motivate players with playing time.

 

[jjvors]

I always defended Ty Lue big time on here. Because he had those key elite coach skills that could help lead your team to playoff success. ATO, in game adjustments, and in series adjustments.

My problem with JBB is that he, to me, is one of the worst coaches in the league at drawing up ATO plays and I think he struggles mightily adjusting in game, on the fly. Therefore I worry mightily about him and his in-series adjustment potential.

In the other hand JBB has gotten this group to play harder than Ty Lue ever got any of his teams to play in the regular season. And he has done a wonderful job with player development and Ty Lue just doesn’t care about player development.

But when it comes down to who a team needs down the road when we are a true contending team with multiple elite talents in their prime…I think Bickerstaffs’ strengths become less useful and almost useless even especially in the playoffs where everyone plays hard the entire time and you need the elite ATOguys. The elite adjustment coaches to give yourself the best chance to win.

That’s why I say, Bickerstaff may be the right guy for the job today but IF we go out 2-3 years from now and underachieve in the playoffs a couple times…then it might be appropriate to look for a different kind of coach. This will be a very attractive job, that’s for sure.

You may be right about JBB. On the other hand, he's new to being a head coach and he can learn to do the things he needs to do. We'll see what happens in the playoffs.