Game Thread | Game #33 | Bucks @ Cavs | Dec. 21, 2022

[Peacedog]

@Peacedog if you think a challenge is simply about the math, then I can't really help you . However I'll explain my point. When you are up 22 early in the game, challenging and winning has little to no impact on the out come.

When the game is in the 4th and the team is on a run, and a play comes up that you can challenge and win, it not only changes the score, it can be a momentum killer. Or it's just the type of reverseal that can get the team going . There is a lot more nuance to it them simply math.

That's ok, brutha, I'm not looking for help. The casual fan looks at a critical play at a critical juncture and thinks, "damn, I wish we had our challenge!" But every play is critical and alters how critical future plays become. It is FAR more important to WIN challenges than it is to have that challenge available at the "critical" point in the game. Last night, JBB made the right call at the right time because his challenge took a basket AND a likely free throw off the board for Milwaukee. Imagine how tight the game would have been the rest of the game of you add 3 points to Milwaukee's score? That Connaughton three that pulled the Bucks within 5 with 2:21 to play? Now, it's a 2 point game, and maybe things transpire differently from there. Coming away from this game with a take that the coaching staff screwed up by taking 3 points off Milwaukee's score in the 2nd quarter strikes me as a bizarre take, sorry.

I get that mine is not the standard take. That's fine. But if I have to choose between taking my challenge in the 2nd quarter when it looks like we've got a 95% chance of it being overturned or late in the game, when it's 50:50, or less? I'm going with the 95% option.

My bigger concern is we seem to have one player (KLove) who seems to put the most pressure on the staff to challenge calls. They need to "filter" his requests some. But last night, he was right.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Agree. Forcing Mobley to the sidelines over foul trouble is what kept this game from being a blowout.
Even with the struggle from Mitchell in the first half.
Even with the bullshit JB was doing at the end (LeVert over Okoro, with the way Okoro was playing Jrue and Jevon??)
Great minutes from the bench, Giannis was trying to KILL. They wasted little time trying the perimeter game when it got tight (to the Cavs' credit they were closing out pretty fast most of the time).

I agreed with the LeVert over Okoro move at the 3 minute mark. Okoro was really hurting our spacing and missed a WIDE open 3. LeVert got a great steal late as well. We’ve generally done very well with LeVert as one of our most used guys in the closing lineup at the 3. We’re like 16-3 when leading after 3 quarters.

 

[Prof123]

Yeah but there isn’t much tangible difference between a 20 and a 22 point leas with the way the game of basketball is played with runs, etc.

If you are going to let a 22 pt game get close you probably would have let the same shit happen in a 24 pt game. But once the game is close down the stretch, a challenge that can change the outcome of crucial possession is invaluable.

With your logic every coach should immediately use their challenge on the first scoring play that would be clearly overturned on review in your favor.

I agree with Peacedog. You never know whether there will even be a later call to be challenged, so I think it is fine to use one early if you know you are going to win. The one caveat I would add is that challenges should only be used on scoring plays earlier in the game. Don't waste one on a call that only affects who gets possession of the ball, because there is no guarantee that a team will ultimately score once they have possession anyway. On the other hand, I would challenge a bad goaltending call in the first two minutes of the game.

 

[Mr. Orange]

Why the limited min for Mobley? Foul trouble?

 

[ZooCrewDude]

Why the limited min for Mobley? Foul trouble?

Yep. He was on the receiving end of a little bit of Giannis Star treatment early and never got going the rest of the way.

 

[Peacedog]

@Peacedog if you think a challenge is simply about the math, then I can't really help you . However I'll explain my point. When you are up 22 early in the game, challenging and winning has little to no impact on the out come.

When the game is in the 4th and the calls. They need to "filter" hus requests some. But last night, he was right

I agree with Ron. You never know whether there will even be a later call to be challenged, so I think it is fine to use one early if you know you are going to win. The one caveat I would add is that challenges should only be used on scoring plays earlier in the game. Don't waste one on a call that only affects who gets possession of the ball, because there is no guarantee that a team will ultimately score once they have possession anyway. On the other hand, I would challenge a bad goaltending call in the first two minutes of the game.

That wasn't Ron's take. It was mine. And agreed on the part about targeting scoring plays. The one JBB took last night was the best case scenario, as it netted the Cavs 3 points.

I wonder of they keep stats on this. To me, success is based on (1) challenging as many plays in a game as possible, and (2) winning as many of these challenges as possible. Technically, last night's challenge netted the Cavs 2.64 points, based on Giannis's 64% FT pct. Assign a "value" for every challenge (failed ones cost a tiny bit, whatever a lost timeout is worth) and sum them up for the year. It would be interesting to see this type of ranking league wide. It's an important tool the league has added to each team. And it should be used wisely.

 

[BimboColesHair]

.

 

[ajz20]

I agreed with the LeVert over Okoro move at the 3 minute mark. Okoro was really hurting our spacing and missed a WIDE open 3. LeVert got a great steal late as well. We’ve generally done very well with LeVert as one of our most used guys in the closing lineup at the 3. We’re like 16-3 when leading after 3 quarters.

Do you think they have enough assets to secure DM from the spurs? Maybe one of the picks playing over seas and the second Mobley if a second rounder in not enough?

 

[Los216]

A WINE & GOLD WINNER

 

[cabs]

I watched the replay. In the final 8 minutes there were 3 clear wrong calls against the cavs and 2 lead directly to buckets for the bucks. This doesn’t include the stupid goaltend on Allen which was in the first half I think. Manufactured close game when it was really a blow out.

Brook Lopez was allowed to be way more physical with our bigs than we were allowed to be with Giannis just quietly

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

The growth that’s happened in a matter of three months is incredible, especially when the lights are as bright, the pressure, big games, and we can only get better. Good teams, they continue to get better. We have a long way to go but we’ve made a lot of progress, a lot more progress anybody in this room and anybody in those locker rooms thought we’d made. - Donovan Mitchell

As the Cavs continue to make progress in playing as a team and also get Rubio and Wade back they will be better in a couple of months than they are now.

The Bucks will get Middleton back and up to speed. When (and if) these teams meet in the playoffs it will be something to see, assuming all the main players are healthy. Home court advantage could be the difference as the home team is 3-0 so far.

Two years from now Durant will be 36 and Kyrie 32. They're carrying the Nets now. Their window will be only as long as Durant can continue playing at this level for 37 minutes.

For the Bucks, in two years Holiday will be 34, Lopez 36, Middleton 33, George Hill 38, Ingles 37, and Ibaka 35. Their window is this year and next.

For the Sixers, Hardin will be 35 and Tobias Harris 32. For Miami, Jimmy Butler will be 35 and Kyle Lowry 38. Boston has a very good core of Tatum, Brown, Smart, and Williams but Horford is already 36 and they have little depth.

Toronto is in good shape with Siakam, VanVleet, Barnes and OG all under 30. I think Orlando is going to be really good with that huge, athletic front line. Cleveland might be in better shape than anybody, especially if Mobley develops like they think he is going to.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

That's ok, brutha, I'm not looking for help. The casual fan looks at a critical play at a critical juncture and thinks, "damn, I wish we had our challenge!" But every play is critical and alters how critical future plays become. It is FAR more important to WIN challenges than it is to have that challenge available at the "critical" point in the game. Last night, JBB made the right call at the right time because his challenge took a basket AND a likely free throw off the board for Milwaukee. Imagine how tight the game would have been the rest of the game of you add 3 points to Milwaukee's score? That Connaughton three that pulled the Bucks within 5 with 2:21 to play? Now, it's a 2 point game, and maybe things transpire differently from there. Coming away from this game with a take that the coaching staff screwed up by taking 3 points off Milwaukee's score in the 2nd quarter strikes me as a bizarre take, sorry.

I get that mine is not the standard take. That's fine. But if I have to choose between taking my challenge in the 2nd quarter when it looks like we've got a 95% chance of it being overturned or late in the game, when it's 50:50, or less? I'm going with the 95% option.

My bigger concern is we seem to have one player (KLove) who seems to put the most pressure on the staff to challenge calls. They need to "filter" his requests some. But last night, he was right.

I have 35000 posts over the last 14 years on a niche Cavs basketball forum. I watch far too much basketball and consume way too much basketball media content. My point: I’m (and the vast majority of this board is) the furthest thing from a casual fan that there is.

I don’t necessarily think every challenge needs to be saved for a close game situation. But here’s where I think your premise is flawed: you cannot assume that the game would have played out identically and the only difference at the end would have been the three points. I’d contend even the very would have turned out likely different for both teams.

If there’s 6-7 minutes left and you’re up 9 and there is a huge momentum changing 3 point or 4 point play, I’m all for using the challenge if it’s a clear reversal. I do hear you about “winning” the challenge. Id be interested in seeing a statistical analysis on this but I’d guess the sample size of challenges prior to crunch time is probably too low to compare it with anything.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Do you think they have enough assets to secure DM from the spurs? Maybe one of the picks playing over seas and the second Mobley if a second rounder in not enough?

Yes. I think he’s available and I don’t think the Spurs are under any delusions that he’s worth a first round pick.

 

[kidduck]

Giannis is an absolute stud who doesn't need all the help
the refs provide him.

As to the challenge use issue, I would like to see teams
get at least 1 per half, though my preference would
be 1 per quarter. I don't think it would
slow the game down so much that the detriment
would be more than the benefits.

 

[Peacedog]

I watched the replay. In the final 8 minutes there were 3 clear wrong calls against the cavs and 2 lead directly to buckets for the bucks. This doesn’t include the stupid goaltend on Allen which was in the first half I think. Manufactured close game when it was really a blow out.

Brook Lopez was allowed to be way more physical with our bigs than we were allowed to be with Giannis just quietly

They called Milwaukee A LOT for fouling Mitchell. Just sayin'....