Historic Cavs Teams Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda

[Sebastian]

Blowing Up the Cavs Properly and at the Right Time (94)

So one thing I look back on at the tail end of the Daugherty era is the Cavs' failure to completely blow the team up once it was apparent Daugherty was cooked. The lure of a retired Jordan led many to believe the Cavs had a legitimate shot at a title in 1994. And if they had stayed healthy they may have. But by the end of that season the only thing clear was that the Big Three were done and they'd never be healthy enough to win it all. What followed of course was the soft rebuild and the treadmill of the Fratello era. Missing the lottery in exchange for very quick First Round exits.

So what happens if Embry blows up the team at the end of the 93-94 season? They had the chance to grab two lotto picks in a stacked Draft.

Mark Price still had a lot of value still coming out of the 93-94 season. And the Clippers were looking for a point guard to push them back into the playoffs.

So, could the Cavs have traded Price for an unprotected Clippers pick? And then stripped the team, trading Hot Rod, Daugherty retires before the season, down in the hopes of winning the lottery and building around young pieces like Brandon, Phills (a prototypical 3 & D specialist) and to a lesser extent Mills.

Say the Cavs only win like 20 games in 94-95. And that Clippers pick still vests near the top of the lotto because Price was inevitably going to get injured.

The Cavs could have credibly end up with picks #2 and #4 in that stacked 1995 Draft. The Cavaliers would have been rebuilt for a decade in a single day, not unlike what happened during the 1986 Draft. Imagine a Cavs roster of:

Terrell Brandon
Jerry Stackhouse
Bobby Phills
Kevin Garnett

Or even McDyess.

 

[Sebastian]

Also, I betray my age in focusing on the teams post 1986.

Please let me know if there are pre-Gund era things I should include (beyond the Stepien thing).

 

[N7RobBob]

fuck trading for the stiff that was Danny ferry. ron Harper would've been much better to try to go against jordan.

Also not hitting and trading 1st picks hurt 1st lebron stint.

 

[YuenglingGator]

Man, there is a lot to go through here. While I gather my thoughts for a future post, I will say 1 "coulda, woulda, shoulda" that always stung was not landing a running mate with our only lotto pick in the young LeBron era. We took Luke Jackson at 10 right after Iggy went at 9. Although it wasn't the Cavs fault he was off the board (and who knows if we take him), I've always wondered what young LeBron and Iggy could have accomplished together. By the time we made the Finals in 07 Iggy was basically a 20-5-5 guy

 

[bigfoot5415]

Ron Harper for Danny Ferry is an obvious #1, but Lebron build 1.0 was pretty rough.

Alternate decision route for Lebron 1.0:

By the time Lebron James on the cover of SI; the Cavs made it pretty clear that they would tank to get him. They traded away Andre Miller (solid double double PG) and claimed it was because they didnt want to pay him what he perceived his worth to be. There wasnt a structure in place, nor was their coaching and young players to build around Lebron.Here is how I would have handled it.

1) Keep Andre Miller, trade Lamond Murry & Wes Person for any assets possible. Pay him what he got in the market - 6 years $51M.
2) Tank in 02. Let Ricky Davis run the show. Let Miller "sit out" and let Boozer develop. In the offseason clear out any of the negative players that could have treated Lebron like shit. The fact that Z became his best friend on the team speaks volumes to the level of toxicity.
3) In 2003, after taking Lebron, we had a bunch of scrubs making quite a bit more than him. Eric Snow, Tony Battie, & Darius Miles made roughly $13M. By keeping Miller, we are at a net difference of $5M under the actual team salary. I think roughly $8 under the cap.
3) The core of Andre Miller, Z, Boozer & Lebron get you into the playoffs in year 1.
4) Throw the farm at Doc Rivers during Lebrons rookie year. You knew he could be a good young coach.
5) Draft Jr Smith with a solid structure around him in 04. Or even a guy like Tony Allen.
6) Max Boozer and go over the cap.

You then have a team of:
Andre Miller
Jr Smith (former AAU teammate of LBJ)
Lebron
Carlos Boozer
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
w Doc Rivers at the helm

3 of those guys will likely get a double-double, Lebron will put up 20-25. JR adds athleticism, 3pt shooting & defensive potential.

Whole core is here 3 years, with a year before and after less 1 piece. JR is last in & Andre is 1st out. You likely win 1 title. If we add any young players throughout that to add key depth; we win multiple titles before you have to dismantle the team and start seeking replacements.

If you want to go further down the crazy ass rabbit hole. We could have made a play for Billups the offseason before at a cheaper rate than Miller. However, I would argue Miller was the better player just never in the right organization at the right time.

 

[Sebastian]

Ron Harper for Danny Ferry is an obvious #1, but Lebron build 1.0 was pretty rough.

Alternate decision route for Lebron 1.0:

By the time Lebron James on the cover of SI; the Cavs made it pretty clear that they would tank to get him. They traded away Andre Miller (solid double double PG) and claimed it was because they didnt want to pay him what he perceived his worth to be. There wasnt a structure in place, nor was their coaching and young players to build around Lebron.Here is how I would have handled it.

1) Keep Andre Miller, trade Lamond Murry & Wes Person for any assets possible. Pay him what he got in the market - 6 years $51M.
2) Tank in 02. Let Ricky Davis run the show. Let Miller "sit out" and let Boozer develop. In the offseason clear out any of the negative players that could have treated Lebron like shit. The fact that Z became his best friend on the team speaks volumes to the level of toxicity.
3) In 2003, after taking Lebron, we had a bunch of scrubs making quite a bit more than him. Eric Snow, Tony Battie, & Darius Miles made roughly $13M. By keeping Miller, we are at a net difference of $5M under the actual team salary. I think roughly $8 under the cap.
3) The core of Andre Miller, Z, Boozer & Lebron get you into the playoffs in year 1.
4) Throw the farm at Doc Rivers during Lebrons rookie year. You knew he could be a good young coach.
5) Draft Jr Smith with a solid structure around him in 04. Or even a guy like Tony Allen.
6) Max Boozer and go over the cap.

You then have a team of:
Andre Miller
Jr Smith (former AAU teammate of LBJ)
Lebron
Carlos Boozer
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
w Doc Rivers at the helm

3 of those guys will likely get a double-double, Lebron will put up 20-25. JR adds athleticism, 3pt shooting & defensive potential.

Whole core is here 3 years, with a year before and after less 1 piece. JR is last in & Andre is 1st out. You likely win 1 title. If we add any young players throughout that to add key depth; we win multiple titles before you have to dismantle the team and start seeking replacements.

If you want to go further down the crazy ass rabbit hole. We could have made a play for Billups the offseason before at a cheaper rate than Miller. However, I would argue Miller was the better player just never in the right organization at the right time.

Yeah, I didn't bring up LeBron's first stint because it was more than one act of incompetence that buried any real chance at a title.

It was seven years of wasted opportunities.

But also, I wanted younger folks to know that the Cavs had other shots before LeBron, and really blew it a few times, most notably the Ron Harper trade, as well known as it is.

I personally wrote about the 1994 thing because it struck me how good the 1995 Draft was and how a team that was completely out of contention, acted far too late to rebuild, and took itself out of the lottery for a First Round sweep.

Sometimes success in sports depends on knowing when to cut one's losses and start over.

 

[Sumac13]

Ron Harper for Danny Ferry is an obvious #1, but Lebron build 1.0 was pretty rough.

Alternate decision route for Lebron 1.0:

By the time Lebron James on the cover of SI; the Cavs made it pretty clear that they would tank to get him. They traded away Andre Miller (solid double double PG) and claimed it was because they didnt want to pay him what he perceived his worth to be. There wasnt a structure in place, nor was their coaching and young players to build around Lebron.Here is how I would have handled it.

1) Keep Andre Miller, trade Lamond Murry & Wes Person for any assets possible. Pay him what he got in the market - 6 years $51M.
2) Tank in 02. Let Ricky Davis run the show. Let Miller "sit out" and let Boozer develop. In the offseason clear out any of the negative players that could have treated Lebron like shit. The fact that Z became his best friend on the team speaks volumes to the level of toxicity.
3) In 2003, after taking Lebron, we had a bunch of scrubs making quite a bit more than him. Eric Snow, Tony Battie, & Darius Miles made roughly $13M. By keeping Miller, we are at a net difference of $5M under the actual team salary. I think roughly $8 under the cap.
3) The core of Andre Miller, Z, Boozer & Lebron get you into the playoffs in year 1.
4) Throw the farm at Doc Rivers during Lebrons rookie year. You knew he could be a good young coach.
5) Draft Jr Smith with a solid structure around him in 04. Or even a guy like Tony Allen.
6) Max Boozer and go over the cap.

You then have a team of:
Andre Miller
Jr Smith (former AAU teammate of LBJ)
Lebron
Carlos Boozer
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
w Doc Rivers at the helm

3 of those guys will likely get a double-double, Lebron will put up 20-25. JR adds athleticism, 3pt shooting & defensive potential.

Whole core is here 3 years, with a year before and after less 1 piece. JR is last in & Andre is 1st out. You likely win 1 title. If we add any young players throughout that to add key depth; we win multiple titles before you have to dismantle the team and start seeking replacements.

If you want to go further down the crazy ass rabbit hole. We could have made a play for Billups the offseason before at a cheaper rate than Miller. However, I would argue Miller was the better player just never in the right organization at the right time.

Andre Miller was under appreciated. I was living in Utah at the time when he played for University of Utah. That was a good team with Miller, Michael Doleac, and Keith Van Horn, with Majerus at the helm. I would have liked to seen Miller, LeBron and Z play together. All high basketball IQ guys.

 

[Man Called X]

What if we lose that coin toss with NO for the extra set of numbers in the lottery and win the Anthony Davis lottery?

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Not a "mistake", but Jim Chones not breaking his foot during practice before the 1976 ECF is a huge coulda/woulda/shoulda. Even without Chones, the Cavs took eventual NBA champion Celtics to six games, and were only outscored by 5 total points.

 

[2 For The Brew]

What if we lose that coin toss with NO for the extra set of numbers in the lottery and win the Anthony Davis lottery?

We won the lottery three out of four years - plus we won the LeBron lottery, arguably the best lottery to win in NBA history. We've been incredibly lucky as a franchise in that respect.

The Cavaliers really haven't had any catastrophic decisions (except possible during the short-lived Stepien Era).

The Portland Trail Blazers, on the other hand, drafted LaRue Martin, Sam Bowie and Greg Oden. The picks right after those three players were Bob McAdoo, Michael Jordan and Kevin Durant. We can't compete with that.

 

[Randolphkeys]

One of my two votes went towards hiring Paxson for GM and I'll go further into detail. It should be a top two choice on here.

Jim Paxson was a solid shooting guard for the Blazers for about a decade, went to two AS games. He and his more decorated brother grew up in Ohio and started at U of Dayton. Sounds like a feel good story, until it wasn't.

Named GM in 1999 after an internship of a year under Embry, he did a little good and a lot of bad. Mind you that Embry left him some quality young players like DA, Sura, Wes Person, Brevin Knight, Big Z... many would go on to very successful careers elsewhere after Paxson traded them away. An argument could easily be made that hiring a cadaver propped up in a chair would have fielded a better team by doing nothing.

Year one: Trading Potapenko for DeClerq and a first rounder that became Miller worked out because the Celtics didn't know The Ukraine Train was battling a drinking problem. That same year, he drafted Trajon Langdon in the lottery and let local kid and fan favorite Earl Boykins walk after a surprising rookie year. Langdon became a Euroleague star and Boykins would go on to score almost 5,800 points with over 2,000 assists coming off NBA benches as instant offense. The next year he shipped out Bob Sura (5,000+ points 2,000+ rebounds, 2,000+ assists career) and Derek Anderson (almost 7,000+ points, 2,000 rebounds, 2,000+ assists career) for Tractor Traylor and Lamond Murray, followed by drafting and trading 19,000+ point career scorer Jamal Crawford for Chris Mihm. The second rounder sucked. Lots of fail.

So again, to his credit in 2000 he traded DeClerq for Matt Harpring, which was a solid move. He did get out from under the Shawn Kemp contract for expiring deals, leading to a crazy season full of mercenaries who had no plan on sticking with the franchise. Now the negatives: traded away Brevin Knight and his career 4,400+ assists and 1,200+ steals for the ghost of Jim Jackson, drafted Saggy Diop, and traded Brendan Haywood's draft rights for Micheal Doleac. Haywood had over 1,100 career blocks and nearly 4,900 career rebounds playing for contenders year after year. As per usual, the second rounder sucked. Locked down Bimbo Cole's to play point guard rather than those quality guards I mentioned he moved the past two years.

We now see lots of talented young players traded for aging vets and chances taken on bad young players heading into 2002. He doubles down by trading solid young forward Harpring for aging Tyrone Hill and stretch four Jumaine Jones. He also manages to lock down Ricky Davis in a trade for one of those aging veterans who doesn't like to play for the franchise, Chris Gatling. This is important because it's one of the few good trades in his tenure. In the draft he takes Dajuan Wagner in the lottery to prove yet again he can't find any guard who could have a better career than undrafted local kid Earl Boykins no matter how many assets he blows through. But finally, a second rounder doesn't suck: Future All Star Carlos Boozer. Maybe he is learning. He isn't. He trades Wes Person (career 8,100+ points, 2,400+ rebounds, 1,200+ assists) for the ghost of Nick Anderson who retires and Matt Barnes, who also never plays a minute for the Cavs. He spends the next season dumping good players left and right, including his only good 1st round draft pick in Andre Miller, for what amounts to Darius Miles and a series of failed experiments like Smush Parker. He moves the frustrated Lamond Murray for Micheal "Yogi" Stewart and the first rounder who would become Jared Dudley... but that pick will be wasted soon. At this point the face of the franchise is still Big Z on one bad foot carrying all these scrubs.

After lucking into LeBron James in the most important lottery in draft history, they select Jason Kapono ahead of players like Kyle Korver and Luke Walton. The mistakes of the 2003-2006 Cavs until Paxson is finally fired are well-documented: Kevin Ollie, Ira Newble, JR Bremer, Kedrick Brown, Eric Williams, Ruben Boumtje-Boumtje, Jeff McInnis, Eric Snow, Sasha Pavlovic, Luke Jackson, Drew Gooden, Steven Hunter, Jiri Welsch... all these scrubs cost actual assets or valuable cap space. Few had a better career than the 5'5 local kid he didn't bother to resign in his first year running the team. Sure we occasionally grabbed Varejao or Tony Battie to cloud the situation, but it was a whole truckload of fail that led to LeBron eventually leaving in disgust.

Jim Paxson, destroyer of a fairly talented young core Embry set up for him and poisoner of everything Danny Ferry tried to fix. One of the main causes of me writing about the Cavs and why they frustrate me daily, which carries through every fiber of my being today. As dark a stain as any on the history of the Cleveland Cavaliers.

 

[Phills14]

Ruben Boumtje-Boumtje

I don't remember him being apart of anything the Cavs did. Good find!

Jiri Welsch was a sticking point for all Cavs followers for years! Who trades a 1st rounder for that guy!

 

[bob2the2nd]

One of my two votes went towards hiring Paxson for GM and I'll go further into detail. It should be a top two choice on here.

Jim Paxson was a solid shooting guard for the Blazers for about a decade, went to two AS games. He and his more decorated brother grew up in Ohio and started at U of Dayton. Sounds like a feel good story, until it wasn't.

Named GM in 1999 after an internship of a year under Embry, he did a little good and a lot of bad. Mind you that Embry left him some quality young players like DA, Sura, Wes Person, Brevin Knight, Big Z... many would go on to very successful careers elsewhere after Paxson traded them away. An argument could easily be made that hiring a cadaver propped up in a chair would have fielded a better team by doing nothing.

Year one: Trading Potapenko for DeClerq and a first rounder that became Miller worked out because the Celtics didn't know The Ukraine Train was battling a drinking problem. That same year, he drafted Trajon Langdon in the lottery and let local kid and fan favorite Earl Boykins walk after a surprising rookie year. Langdon became a Euroleague star and Boykins would go on to score almost 5,800 points with over 2,000 assists coming off NBA benches as instant offense. The next year he shipped out Bob Sura (5,000+ points 2,000+ rebounds, 2,000+ assists career) and Derek Anderson (almost 7,000+ points, 2,000 rebounds, 2,000+ assists career) for Tractor Traylor and Lamond Murray, followed by drafting and trading 19,000+ point career scorer Jamal Crawford for Chris Mihm. The second rounder sucked. Lots of fail.

So again, to his credit in 2000 he traded DeClerq for Matt Harpring, which was a solid move. He did get out from under the Shawn Kemp contract for expiring deals, leading to a crazy season full of mercenaries who had no plan on sticking with the franchise. Now the negatives: traded away Brevin Knight and his career 4,400+ assists and 1,200+ steals for the ghost of Jim Jackson, drafted Saggy Diop, and traded Brendan Haywood's draft rights for Micheal Doleac. Haywood had over 1,100 career blocks and nearly 4,900 career rebounds playing for contenders year after year. As per usual, the second rounder sucked. Locked down Bimbo Cole's to play point guard rather than those quality guards I mentioned he moved the past two years.

We now see lots of talented young players traded for aging vets and chances taken on bad young players heading into 2002. He doubles down by trading solid young forward Harpring for aging Tyrone Hill and stretch four Jumaine Jones. He also manages to lock down Ricky Davis in a trade for one of those aging veterans who doesn't like to play for the franchise, Chris Gatling. This is important because it's one of the few good trades in his tenure. In the draft he takes Dajuan Wagner in the lottery to prove yet again he can't find any guard who could have a better career than undrafted local kid Earl Boykins no matter how many assets he blows through. But finally, a second rounder doesn't suck: Future All Star Carlos Boozer. Maybe he is learning. He isn't. He trades Wes Person (career 8,100+ points, 2,400+ rebounds, 1,200+ assists) for the ghost of Nick Anderson who retires and Matt Barnes, who also never plays a minute for the Cavs. He spends the next season dumping good players left and right, including his only good 1st round draft pick in Andre Miller, for what amounts to Darius Miles and a series of failed experiments like Smush Parker. He moves the frustrated Lamond Murray for Micheal "Yogi" Stewart and the first rounder who would become Jared Dudley... but that pick will be wasted soon. At this point the face of the franchise is still Big Z on one bad foot carrying all these scrubs.

After lucking into LeBron James in the most important lottery in draft history, they select Jason Kapono ahead of players like Kyle Korver and Luke Walton. The mistakes of the 2003-2006 Cavs until Paxson is finally fired are well-documented: Kevin Ollie, Ira Newble, JR Bremer, Kedrick Brown, Eric Williams, Ruben Boumtje-Boumtje, Jeff McInnis, Eric Snow, Sasha Pavlovic, Luke Jackson, Drew Gooden, Steven Hunter, Jiri Welsch... all these scrubs cost actual assets or valuable cap space. Few had a better career than the 5'5 local kid he didn't bother to resign in his first year running the team. Sure we occasionally grabbed Varejao or Tony Battie to cloud the situation, but it was a whole truckload of fail that led to LeBron eventually leaving in disgust.

Jim Paxson, destroyer of a fairly talented young core Embry set up for him and poisoner of everything Danny Ferry tried to fix. One of the main causes of me writing about the Cavs and why they frustrate me daily, which carries through every fiber of my being today. As dark a stain as any on the history of the Cleveland Cavaliers.

can.... you do this with the browns next?

 

[Randolphkeys]

I don't remember him being apart of anything the Cavs did. Good find!

Jiri Welsch was a sticking point for all Cavs followers for years! Who trades a 1st rounder for that guy!

So that was one the intents of my post.

Looking back, it was indeed awful that Paxson traded the pick that would become Rudy Fernandez for Jiri Welsch. Fernandez had some success in the NBA but mostly in the Spanish League. Paxson also traded the pick that became Jared Dudley for Sasha Pavlovic. Dudley is still playing, but in his career he scored over 6,600 points with over 2,800+ rebounds and 1,300+ assists.

However, in the grand scheme of things, those were just two bad moves out of about twenty during Paxson's run. DA, Sura, and Ferry all helped other franchises win championships. Plenty of solid role players were liquidated for nothing. Others like Harpring, Haywood, and Crawford helped other franchises make long playoff runs year after year.

It's is this vast body of sucky work that should easily slide into second place in this poll.

 

[Man Called X]

I don't remember him being apart of anything the Cavs did. Good find!

Jiri Welsch was a sticking point for all Cavs followers for years! Who trades a 1st rounder for that guy!

Being fair, RBB never played a game for the Cavs, was just throw in of the Jeff McGinnis/Darius Miles trade. Think he was more or less for salary purposes.