Indians Trade Rumors

[cdt]

But Lee walks after next year and CC the year after you might as well close Jacobs or call it D league Baseball because it will signal we will never be serious contenders again.

They are good yes, but CC and Cliff Lee are not going to doom us. CC is never going to pan out into the Ace we need. Way too inconsistent.

Lee had some good years but I'd prefer to let him go and get a righty, Sowers will be better anyway.

It won't be the end, two pitchers won't kill the Tribe

 

[Smooth]

If they cant sign him I hope they make a good trade not just let him walk. The fact we have CC and Sowers, a third lefty is expendable. But Lee walks after next year and CC the year after you might as well close Jacobs or call it D league Baseball because it will signal we will never be serious contenders again.

What is wrong with having 3 lefties in your rotation?

1). CC
2). Righty
3). Lee
4). Righty
5). Sowers


I don't care what side you pitch from, as long as they are successful...

 

[LyXo]

Our starting pitchers are not the issue. It's plainly clear.. painfully clear that our bullpen was demolished last offseason and we didn't do anything about it.

Howry left
Rhodes traded
Riske traded
Wickman got older

We watched the best bullpen in the AL just take off and leave, because we didn't see fit to pay an extra million. Sheesh. I guess I'm starting to see how sticky the poop of Dolan/Shapiro is...

 

[Smooth]

Our starting pitchers are not the issue.

I agree that the Bullpen is a bigger issue... But the starting pitchers are still a issue..

Do you realize, we still don't have a 10 game winner yet?

That's not too impressive with the talent we have...

Not to mention, Byrd really hasn't produced like we expected... Same thing could be said for Jason Johnson.

 

[Smooth]

Take a look at this:

The tools that attracted Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein and his staff to Wily Mo Peña are the same tools that have teams that are out of contention eyeing Peña now. The Indians are looking for a righthanded corner outfielder with power. They could part with Jake Westbrook or Paul Byrd.
-- Boston Globe

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/scorecard/07/24/truth.rumors.mlb/index.html

I'd do the deal only if we could get a pitcher in return..

If you remember, Shapiro went after Matt Clement when he was a FA... He is now with the Red Sox, and not really blowing anyone away.

Maybe Byrd or Westbrook + prospect for Clement and Pena..

Thoughts?

 

[MixedBag]

Anytime you can get a fulltime impact player for a non-ace level pitcher your getting the better of the deal.

If we can get a guy that solves our Power hitting OF need, Byrd should be flying away.

Letting Howry leave was a big problem, but bullpens often need to be rebuilt. Riske was not helping and needed a change of address and Wickman was a guy nobody wanted and we only turned back to because everyone decent said no.

Unfortunately Mota sucked for us, he had some good years in the NL. Also some of the young guys that showed so much promise for the pen last year couldn't get it together this year.

I have no problem with 3 lefties if they are good enough. It looks like Lee wants to leave or wants more money that Shapiro or his boss are willing to pay.

The starters on this team are not doing the job.

You can't just keep saying this is my new ace and then have him walk when the team starts to get good enough to contend. Impact players whether pitchers or everyday players need to be kept. You may not think CC is all that, but I can assure you that people that know baseball do.

At some point this team has to stop rebuilding or make a run or just stop fooling the fans into thinking they are a major league team. CC needs to be kept or traded for a pitcher that is a top of the order talent. Right now we have none, only the hope that Sowers or in a few years Miller will become one.

Time to spend some money and make a run.

 

[Smooth]

Anytime you can get a fulltime impact player for a non-ace level pitcher your getting the better of the deal.

I wouldn't necessarily call Pena a impact player...

Plus, trading Westbrook or Byrd (both solid starters & and top of our rotation picthers), and not getting a picther in return, isn't too smart..

If we can get a guy that solves our Power hitting OF need, Byrd should be flying away.

Where does he fit in? We already have Blake in RF, and Michaels in left... And Pena doesn't really have the speed to play center...

So, Michaels would have to be gone, or Blake would have to go back to 3rd..

Letting Howry leave was a big problem, but bullpens often need to be rebuilt.

I agree that he was a good bullpen guy.. But was it really worth paying 3 mil a year, for above/average 33 year old pitcher?

Wickman was a guy nobody wanted and we only turned back to because everyone decent said no.

You know the Braves went after him last offseason?

And the teams didn't reject our offers...

Wickman had the right to veto trades... He rejected two trades before accepting the one to the Braves..

Unfortunately Mota sucked for us, he had some good years in the NL. Also some of the young guys that showed so much promise for the pen last year couldn't get it together this year.

That is true, in the beginning of the season... But his last 11 appearences, or so, he has done pretty good..

His mechanics are the problem... Once he can fix those, he will be fine..

The starters on this team are not doing the job.

Neither is the bullpen, or the defense..

Time to spend some money and make a run.

That's impossible with Dolan still owning the team..

 

[MixedBag]

I think Shapiro and probably the consensus of opinion is that Willy Mo can be an impact middle of the order power hitter.

Are you saying we should not upgrade Blake or Michaels? Traditionally corner OF provide power and bat middle of the order. those guys are 2 and 8 in the lineup type hitters.

That said our hitting isnt that big of a problem, and will be even less so if Marte can deliver at all in place of Boone.

I think the Bullpen will settle, I think we are close to having a nice group of power arms to build around. Could use a lefty or two depending on Mr Wild pitch. But as bad as it has been, I think the pen will be ok without very much change.

To me this team will not contend until the starting rotation is fixed. People can bitch all they want about Wedge's managing and Paralta being too big to play ss and Victor's throwing problems. I think all that is minor compared to finding a stud starter to be the number 2 guy. I think CC, Stud, Sowers, Byrd or Westbrook or similar and Lee or anything decent make a rotation that gives us a shot with our offense.

Byrd and Westbrook are 2 year guys and at least one will be gone after next year and neither is the stud that can be the #2 guy for us, so I would trade either, maybe even both depending on what is on the market for signing.

But if we refuse to spend money nothing will work. Just a fact of life in sports. If the cheapskate owner keeps insisting we pay first and he gives players later we will be a minor league team. Can you imagine how many hamburgers a store would sell if they said you buy our horsemeat burgers now and in a year or two we promise to feed you real beef? This owner brings us back to the Vernon Stouffer et al owners of the 60s.

 

[Blind_Sniper]

Those stupid sox are going to get Soriano, and we will suffer even more curse you Dolan.. you alligator armed, spider web walleted owner reach into that pocket, and get us some players...

 

[Smooth]

I think Shapiro and probably the consensus of opinion is that Willy Mo can be an impact middle of the order power hitter.

I agree that he can make an impact.. But it sounded like you are saying he will make a huge one...

Are you saying we should not upgrade Blake or Michaels? Traditionally corner OF provide power and bat middle of the order. those guys are 2 and 8 in the lineup type hitters.

I defintely think we should, but where do they go? Neither of them want to be bench players.. Although I wouldn't mind it, it certainly wouldn't sit well with either..

I think the Bullpen will settle, I think we are close to having a nice group of power arms to build around. Could use a lefty or two depending on Mr Wild pitch. But as bad as it has been, I think the pen will be ok without very much change.

Are you serious? We have one of the worst bullpens' in the league.. and you say we don't need to fix it?

 

[MixedBag]

Are you seriously suggesting that Shapiro not upgrade the team because it might upset one of our fringe talent players?

No our pen sucks, I just think the basic group that is there have good arms and with some exp and some minor moves it will be ok. Would also look better if they didnt have to come into games in the 5th inning on most nights. You have what 4 or 5 guys that bring it in the mid to upper 90s and most of them are young and likely to learn their jobs. I like Carmona as closer, Cabrera could be a solid setup type guy, Mota as bad as he was early can be useful or more likely traded for a lefty. Muijica and maybe Davis(a headcase with great stuff) could form a pretty solid core of a pen. They may not be ready as several of them have less than a year in the biggs and other just over, but they have the arms.

Maybe I am overly optimistic but if the starters begin to take us into the 7th and occasionally 8th there is enough talent to finish games.

 

[MixedBag]

What the hell is with Lee again tonight?

He may regret turning down that contract he was offered in ST. Right now his value is dipping.

 

[cavincali]

I agree that the Bullpen is a bigger issue... But the starting pitchers are still a issue..

Do you realize, we still don't have a 10 game winner yet?

That's not too impressive with the talent we have...

Not to mention, Byrd really hasn't produced like we expected... Same thing could be said for Jason Johnson.

You arent the same guy I ripped before are you.

Byrd has been very solid his past 15 starts, he hasnt allowed more than 4 runs in those starts. He has done a good enough job

Johnson did suck.

Our defense is as big of an issue as the starting pitching and relief.

 

[Smooth]

Byrd has been very solid his past 15 starts, he hasnt allowed more than 4 runs in those starts. He has done a good enough job

If you take a look at his past 10 starts... The stats tell a different story:

http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5468

His last 3 starts, he hasn't gone more than 6 innings deep in the game.. Although, before those three starts he had been pretty solid..

And in his last 15 games, he has allowed more than 4 runs 4 times.. While that isn't that much, I'd expect more consistency for a guy we payed 7 mil a year in the offseason..

When I look back on the signing, I guess we were overly optimistic... The guy has a career 4.23 ERA,a 1.29 WHIP, and a 79-70 win record.. All of those aren't too far off from his season averages..

At this point of the season, I would of rather kept Kevin Millwood and his contract..

Johnson did suck.

That's a bit of an understatement.. :chuckles:

Our defense is as big of an issue as the starting pitching and relief.

Basically everything besides our offense...

What a great sign..

I still think we should move Martinez to 1st full-time and Peralta to 2nd..

 

[MixedBag]

If I am offered anything of quality for Byrd he flies. Not that he isn't an asset but he is on a two year deal and if I can get a quality young player that will be here for 5, I am taking the deal.