Isaac 3 & D Okoro - A Two Way Playing Basketball Savant

[Cavatt]

I actually agree with this but the measure has to be more than scoring right?

I would assume okoro is poised for more of a breakout compared to last year with an nba off-season and if he gets to 13-15/4/4 with great to potential all defensive 2nd team defense vs 25/3/2 and a defensive sieve? Where do we go with that? What’s better for the team?

Our draft pick and how Darius Garland looks would probably make this decision for us but my general point is I think we need to look at more than “He iS aN EliTE ScOrER ThOUgh” on a bad team and start looking at real impact in other ways.

EAT THAT ASS: Before the sexton fans crucify me, I still don’t think they should trade him and he may be much much better than okoro next year, the above was just a scenario where the impacts may be similar but in different ways. Best case scenario is both of them take big leaps and we keep them both.

It's not just the points. Sexton can win you the game at the end. You can put the ball in his hands. He's done it on multiple occasions. Okoro has shown some of that to be fair, but IMO Collin is the only guy on the team as of today that has the consistency of a star. We can talk all we want about his defense or poor playmaking, but his consistency is star like, and that just isn't 6th man material.

He is a weird player because he needs be paired with a larger playmaker, but I really think he can play that Robin role. He is just a cold blooded guy.

 

[2 For The Brew]

It's not just the points. Sexton can win you the game at the end. You can put the ball in his hands. He's done it on multiple occasions. Okoro has shown some of that to be fair, but IMO Collin is the only guy on the team as of today that has the consistency of a star. We can talk all we want about his defense or poor playmaking, but his consistency is star like, and that just isn't 6th man material.

He is a weird player because he needs be paired with a larger playmaker, but I really think he can play that Robin role. He is just a cold blooded guy.

Sixers could have used him in Game 4. They needed buckets in the worst way at the death.

 

[Randolphkeys]

I agree with Imwithdan. You can't bring Sexton off the bench. He is too good and no one is likely to outplay him unless they absolutely hit it out of the park with maybe Green? Okoro would have to be undeniably better than Sexton next year and that seems impossible.

I just don't think you can pay Sexton what he is worth and bring him off the bench.

Let's start with a long view - Sexton is a very good NBA player. Likewise, the Cavaliers are a very bad basketball team. They occasionally defend well, but their offense fails to get everyone going in the first quarter of most games. There's a lot of standing around off the ball. Is that coaching or what the players are used to out of initial PnR? Probably a little of both. Either way, the Cavs aren't close to contending in the East and the East blows outside of about four teams.

The Cavaliers may trade Sexton either this off-season or by the deadline. He has real value and the back court has undeniable problems getting others involved/defending against the better half of the league. The Cavs need a major shakeup, and trading the best asset right before he demands high salary has some logic behind it... Provided the package coming back kick starts another rebuild.

I'm not interested in making this thread a fantasy trade thread. The site has plenty of other places for it. However I could see the Cavs drafting a small forward who has better length and bumping Okoro to shooting guard. Defensively it makes plenty of sense and stands to improve ball movement.

 

[inliner311]

It's not just the points. Sexton can win you the game at the end. You can put the ball in his hands. He's done it on multiple occasions. Okoro has shown some of that to be fair, but IMO Collin is the only guy on the team as of today that has the consistency of a star. We can talk all we want about his defense or poor playmaking, but his consistency is star like, and that just isn't 6th man material.

He is a weird player because he needs be paired with a larger playmaker, but I really think he can play that Robin role. He is just a cold blooded guy.

Sexton is built to be Robin like Kyrie was with Lebron but he already has the experience to accept playing off the ball as part of that potential duo. He knows he can excel playing off the ball, it took a while for Kyrie to accept that. He can run the second unit just like Kyrie did. At the end of the game you will want him in to create something out of nothing.

Sexton might end up being the guy who switches in and out, offense for defense for someone like Okoro in late game situations. It's going to be a give and take to make it all work. I'd rather allow Sexton to start so he is willing to come out in late game situations on defense.

 

[weepinwillow]

Let's start with a long view - Sexton is a very good NBA player. Likewise, the Cavaliers are a very bad basketball team. They occasionally defend well, but their offense fails to get everyone going in the first quarter of most games. There's a lot of standing around off the ball. Is that coaching or what the players are used to out of initial PnR? Probably a little of both. Either way, the Cavs aren't close to contending in the East and the East blows outside of about four teams.

The Cavaliers may trade Sexton either this off-season or by the deadline. He has real value and the back court has undeniable problems getting others involved/defending against the better half of the league. The Cavs need a major shakeup, and trading the best asset right before he demands high salary has some logic behind it... Provided the package coming back kick starts another rebuild.

I'm not interested in making this thread a fantasy trade thread. The site has plenty of other places for it. However I could see the Cavs drafting a small forward who has better length and bumping Okoro to shooting guard. Defensively it makes plenty of sense and stands to improve ball movement.

I feel like there is nothing more to be said on the Collin front. He will either figure out playmaking or he won't. If he does it will mostly justify the big contract the Cavs are going to give him (and they will give it to him, Gilbert will not let him be traded and I don't think Altman has the guts to even suggest it), if he doesn't, we will have him in every trade scenario for the next 3-4 seasons and will be on the outside looking in come playoff season.

Okoro/Garland/Allen/Suggs
Okoro/Garland/Allen/Cunningham
Okoro/Garland/Allen/Green
Okoro/Garland/Allen/Kuminga
Okoro/Garland/Allen/Barnes

All those line ups give me more hope than one centered on Collin's decision making, but I'm in the minority to some degree.

 

[Cavatt]

Sixers could have used him in Game 4. They needed buckets in the worst way at the death.

Look at the Bucks too. When Brooklyn walls off Giannis' path to the rim, no one can break the defense. Jrue I am especially upset with. He can't get by anyone, and they just stick one guy on him. His offensive issues unfortunately perfectly complement Middleton and Giannis' offensive limitations making it so their offense doesn't work.

It's really what I am worried about with Garland. His outside shot isn't breaking the defense yet, while Sexton sees the 4th most double teams in the league. You can wish Sexton was the 6th man all you want, but no one else on the team is doing that.

Okoro is the only other guy I can see developing that kind of attention right now. His first step and finishing means it is possible. Garland needs to really kill with his off the dribble 3 for him to be that player.

He's a good passer and is developing as a floor general, but he can't break the defense with his passing, first step, or shot yet. I am not saying he can't develop that, but it isn't there today. That is Sexton's best skill. It isn't actually his scoring. He can upend the defense. It's also the reason people get upset with him, because he could take more advantage of it and he hasn't fully exploited it yet.

edit: Weepin Willow here is making my same point about Collin's decisionmaking/playmaking. Doesn't matter to me yet because he is making better decisions, and no one else has show they can bend the defense like that. Until they do we need Collin

 

[Ozone]

I feel like there is nothing more to be said on the Collin front. He will either figure out playmaking or he won't. If he does it will mostly justify the big contract the Cavs are going to give him (and they will give it to him, Gilbert will not let him be traded and I don't think Altman has the guts to even suggest it), if he doesn't, we will have him in every trade scenario for the next 3-4 seasons and will be on the outside looking in come playoff season.

Okoro/Garland/Allen/Suggs
Okoro/Garland/Allen/Cunningham
Okoro/Garland/Allen/Green
Okoro/Garland/Allen/Kuminga
Okoro/Garland/Allen/Barnes

All those line ups give me more hope than one centered on Collin's decision making, but I'm in the minority to some degree.

The optimal line up for the Cavs organization from what I am taking away so far is this:
BPA,BPA,BPA,BPA,BPA
Sexton is one of them

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I just don't think you can pay Sexton what he is worth and bring him off the bench.

For me, that's the bottom line. All the basketball theory in the world about how Sexton's best fit is as a guy coming off the bench isn't going to matter if he isn't willing to accept that role (and the lower salary that accompanies it) at this point in his career. I'd be shocked if he would, not should he. Some team with a taller playmaker is going to be all over him to start, and rightfully so.

Sixers are an ideal fit except they don't have anything of sufficient value to offer.

 

[Ozone]

Look at the Bucks too. When Brooklyn walls off Giannis' path to the rim, no one can break the defense. Jrue I am especially upset with. He can't get by anyone, and they just stick one guy on him. His offensive issues unfortunately perfectly complement Middleton and Giannis' offensive limitations making it so their offense doesn't work.

It's really what I am worried about with Garland. His outside shot isn't breaking the defense yet, while Sexton sees the 4th most double teams in the league. You can wish Sexton was the 6th man all you want, but no one else on the team is doing that.

Okoro is the only other guy I can see developing that kind of attention right now. His first step and finishing means it is possible. Garland needs to really kill with his off the dribble 3 for him to be that player.

He's a good passer and is developing as a floor general, but he can't break the defense with his passing, first step, or shot yet. I am not saying he can't develop that, but it isn't there today. That is Sexton's best skill. It isn't actually his scoring. He can upend the defense. It's also the reason people get upset with him, because he could take more advantage of it and he hasn't fully exploited it yet.

edit: Weepin Willow here is making my same point about Collin's decisionmaking/playmaking. Doesn't matter to me yet because he is making better decisions, and no one else has show they can bend the defense like that. Until they do we need Collin

This

 

[weepinwillow]

The optimal line up for the Cavs organization from what I am taking away so far is this:
BPA,BPA,BPA,BPA,BPA
Sexton is one of them

like I said, nothing more can be said. You and I don't see Collin the same way.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Okoro as the shooting guard seems like the move...but the ceiling of that type of starting lineup would likely be dictated by his evolution as a shooter.

Garland - Okoro - Cunningham at the 1-2-3 is my dream. All very capable as pick n' roll ball handlers but all with the ability to play off the ball as well. Super versatile and would be a perimeter group worth spending money on vets to flank.

I don't watch college basketball, so this is an honest question not a rhetorical one.

Are any of those three guys truly capable of breaking down a defense off the dribble? From what I've seen, Garland doesn't seem to have that level of aggression, and Okoro isn't that good a ballhandler. So...is Cunningham that guy?

 

[foucault87]

Are we sure we can't sell Collin on being a Manu type? Who cares who starts. It's the finishing the game that matters. Let him run hog wild on bench units and close with okoro + sexton/garland depending on matchup. Unfortunately I don't think our current coach is smart enough to pull this off...

 

[Cavatt]

Are we sure we can't sell Collin on being a Manu type? Who cares who starts. It's the finishing the game that matters. Let him run hog wild on bench units and close with okoro + sexton/garland depending on matchup. Unfortunately I don't think our current coach is smart enough to pull this off...

Manu wasn't the best player on his team. There were 2 guys better and a better defending 3 and D guy starting above him. I think you need at least 2 guys that are clearly better than him, and there is no way you have that before his extension kicks in.

 

[inliner311]

I feel like there is nothing more to be said on the Collin front. He will either figure out playmaking or he won't. If he does it will mostly justify the big contract the Cavs are going to give him (and they will give it to him, Gilbert will not let him be traded and I don't think Altman has the guts to even suggest it), if he doesn't, we will have him in every trade scenario for the next 3-4 seasons and will be on the outside looking in come playoff season.

Okoro/Garland/Allen/Suggs
Okoro/Garland/Allen/Cunningham
Okoro/Garland/Allen/Green
Okoro/Garland/Allen/Kuminga
Okoro/Garland/Allen/Barnes

All those line ups give me more hope than one centered on Collin's decision making, but I'm in the minority to some degree.

I personally feel we sometimes get too focused on starting lineups vs how you can space our talent over 48 minutes. Sexton can play with Garland, it might not be ideal but if it's the biggest problem to work around it can work. Sexton and Okoro showed at the end of the season that their playing styles can mesh to give us a workable lineup.

It's only going to help us to move away from hockey style lineup changes and figure out multiple lineups that can prove a more diversified rotations. With more talent we can figure out lineups for more situations and how to exploit other teams in multiple way.

Also the benefit to more talent and more lineups is we can most likely reduce guys minutes to keep the load off of them. Injuries are a real concern to winning and if we can have our best players playing 30 minutes a game instead of 36, we should hopefully stay healthier.

 

[foucault87]

Manu wasn't the best player on his team. There were 2 guys better and a better defending 3 and D guy starting above him. I think you need at least 2 guys that are clearly better than him, and there is no way you have that before his extension kicks in.

Agreed but we should be projecting a few years out not this coming season. This team isn't sniffing a deep playoff run for a few more seasons and that's only if we hit on next pick and the core improves etc