Koby Altman nailed, then failed to take breathalyzer…

[cavsfever]

He has increased the winning level. Went from .232 to .292 to .306. In full 82 game seasons that would go from 19 wins to 24 then 25. Nothing spectacular, but still consistent improvement.

the team has gained six wins in three years, moving from the worst to the third worst record in the league? You don’t say! Definitely sounds like he nailed the rebuild to me! At this rate we’ll have our first winning record by 2030…can’t wait!

 

[daddywags]

the team has gained six wins in three years, moving from the worst to the third worst record in the league? You don’t say! Definitely sounds like he nailed the rebuild to me! At this rate we’ll have our first winning record by 2030…can’t wait!

I didn't say he nailed the rebuild. But, if it helps, you can pretend I did. Makes no difference to me.

 

[Photon]

You can always debate what would be the optimal moves, but that is also just a theoretical optimum, because it causes other things to move differently.

But pretending like we had 4 consecutive top 3 picks and they “managed to miss on all of them” is not even remotely productive. We only have one DO NOT MISS pick and it’s the last one. You can’t really do much about draft lottery luck. And I really wish we would get another one before we go forward.

 

[CavsKermit]

The only serious misstep was in year two with the hiring of Beilein (and I'm not entirely sure that was Kobe's call). It was compounded by the fact that it was obvious to everyone that K. Love, who was still healthy enough to have trade value, was growing incensed by Sexton treating him like a $30M decoy. That entire situation was badly mismanaged by the F.O. Sexton should've been benched before it got to that if he wasn't listening to the coaches, and if Beilein was the only person in the arena who couldn't see what was coming, then someone in F.O. desperately needed to explain it to him. I mean it's one thing if a veteran player is growing frustrated because he's not getting enough touches when the team is competing. It's another thing entirely when the team is getting run out of the gym on a nightly basis. It was really awful basketball.

Other than that, I have quibbles, but no major issues with what Kobe has done. Show me the second best offer for Kyrie (who hasn't exactly covered himself in glory since getting traded).

Sexton over Mikal Bridges was a mistake but not a fatal one. I can see the thinking that it was going to be a multi-year rebuild, but if you have an opportunity to grab a good two-way SF, you should take it because we haven't been in that position since and we may have to reach next draft if things don't get sorted via trade before then.

We got jumped for Hunter the year we drafted Garland. Nothing you can do about that and Garland was a good pick.

You can argue Vassell over Okoro but it's not a particularly strong argument. Bey would've been a real reach at No. 5 and I think he's close to his ceiling.

Mobley was a great pick IMO. I would've liked Green or Cade better but neither were on the board.

The most important thing for a GM during a rebuild is to not miss on picks in the top 10. Kobe's accomplished that. None of those guys are straight busts.

 

[Ozone]

Yeah this is not looking to good for Koby right now if he really is considering trading for a bum like Simmons but he definitely gets one more season with Mobley Markkanen added and Sexton playing for the big $ to see what he has assembled is worth avoiding a major retool

 

[CavsKermit]

Yeah this is not looking to good for Koby right now if he really is considering trading for a bum like Simmons but he definitely gets one more season with Mobley Markkanen added and Sexton playing for the big $ to see what he has assembled is worth avoiding a major retool

There are other reasons to stay involved in the Simmons talks besides landing Simmons (I agree that it's difficult to see the Cavs winning a Simmons trade). Altman's best trades so far have been the Cavs being the third team facilitator.

 

[cavsfever]

The most important thing for a GM during a rebuild is to not miss on picks in the top 10. Kobe's accomplished that. None of those guys are straight busts.

Not to be the skunk at the party here, but we actually don't know if Sexton or Okoro are busts yet. Sexton is a pretty good player, yes. But if we have to trade him for no good return because we're not willing to pay his salary -- and we're not willing to pay his salary because we can't figure out how to make what is basically an severely undersize 2-guard fit into our backcourt -- then guess what? He's a BUST. If we lose him for basically nothing after his rookie contract he's a bust even if talent-wise he is a fine offensive player.

With Okoro the case is even clearer. He's not really a good player yet, and we don't know if he will become one. He's also a weird tweener who plays like a SF but is only tall enough to be a SG, so it's unclear how he fits in.

The issue here is that lottery picks aren't just a matter of talent spotting in a vacuum, they are also about building a team.

 

[CavsKermit]

Not to be the skunk at the party here, but we actually don't know if Sexton or Okafor are busts yet. Sexton is a pretty good player, yes. But if we have to trade him for no good return because we're not willing to pay his salary -- and we're not willing to pay his salary because we can't figure out how to make what is basically an severely undersize 2-guard fit into our backcourt -- then guess what? He's a BUST. If we lose him for basically nothing after his rookie contract he's a bust even if talent-wise he is a fine offensive player.

With Okafor the case is even clearer. He's not really a good player yet, and we don't know if he will become one. He's also a weird tweener who plays like a SF but is only tall enough to be a SG, so it's unclear how he fits in.

The issue here is that lottery picks aren't just a matter of talent spotting in a vacuum, they are also about building a team.

I think you mean Okoro. Okafor was a clear bust. But we have different definitions of busts. Sexton can probably be a sixth man of the year in the NBA, and if you're picking at No. 8, you could do far worse. If he goes to a team that has the right kind of personnel, he can be a poor man's Kyrie next to a poor man's LBJ. The Heat had Herro on the table for him this summer and the Knicks had at least one pick and Toppin on the table. Teams don't offer anything for busts. There are plenty of players selected in the top 10 who don't even have the final option on their rookie deals picked up because they're not worth the cap hold. See, e.g., Sekou.

I have concerns about Okoro. He appears shorter than advertised and that's making him look more like a SG than SF. But, if you look at his shooting splits from last year, he was a far better shooter at home so there's at least some evidence his jumper isn't flat broken. The other thing is that when you're drafting 19-year old players, particularly works in progress, you need to give them at least two full NBA seasons. Garland looked awful his rookie year. Bey appeared to be the best 3&D prospect from last year's draft but he played two years in college, was older, and viewed as being pretty close to his ceiling. It's why he was still on the board at No. 19. You really shouldn't be drafting guys like that in the top 10, let alone top 5.

 

[Ozone]

There are other reasons to stay involved in the Simmons talks besides landing Simmons (I agree that it's difficult to see the Cavs winning a Simmons trade). Altman's best trades so far have been the Cavs being the third team facilitator.

Yep, I just think the main reason for the Cavs rumored interest is speculative at best based on historical interest only.
Personally think Simmons has such a bad rep now that few teams including the Cavs are actually interested and the most any would give up is a package to get off a bad contract.
Love and a couple 2nds might in fact be an overpay for Simmons at this point because of the toxicity he brings into the org or any org for that matter.

 

[CavsKermit]

Yep, I just think the main reason for the Cavs rumored interest is speculative at best based on historical interest only.
Personally think Simmons has such a bad rep now that few teams including the Cavs are actually interested and the most any would give up is a package to get off a bad contract.
Love and a couple 2nds might in fact be an overpay for Simmons at this point because of the toxicity he brings into the org or any org for that matter.

That seems unrealistic. The Wolves would beat that pretty easily. I'm lukewarm on the idea of adding Simmons, but if we do, it will cost at least one real asset and Rubio's contract might be the filler instead of Love.

 

[cavsfever]

I think you mean Okoro. Okafor was a clear bust. But we have different definitions of busts. Sexton can probably be a sixth man of the year in the NBA, and if you're picking at No. 8, you could do far worse. If he goes to a team that has the right kind of personnel, he can be a poor man's Kyrie next to a poor man's LBJ. The Heat had Herro on the table for him this summer and the Knicks had at least one pick and Toppin on the table. Teams don't offer anything for busts. There are plenty of players selected in the top 10 who don't even have the final option on their rookie deals picked up because they're not worth the cap hold. See, e.g., Sekou.

I have concerns about Okoro. He appears shorter than advertised and that's making him look more like a SG than SF. But, if you look at his shooting splits from last year, he was a far better shooter at home so there's at least some evidence his jumper isn't flat broken. The other thing is that when you're drafting 19-year old players, particularly works in progress, you need to give them at least two full NBA seasons. Garland looked awful his rookie year. Bey appeared to be the best 3&D prospect from last year's draft but he played two years in college, was older, and viewed as being pretty close to his ceiling. It's why he was still on the board at No. 19. You really shouldn't be drafting guys like that in the top 10, let alone top 5.

yes Okoro, fixed it.

my point about Sexton was not that he’s a bad player. He’s a pretty good player. It’s that the test of a pick isn’t whether he’s a good player, it’s whether he helps you win. If we end up having to let him go for no return because we can’t figure out how to fit him into our long term plans, then by definition that’s a failure that is on the GM

 

[inliner311]

yes Okoro, fixed it.

my point about Sexton was not that he’s a bad player. He’s a pretty good player. It’s that the test of a pick isn’t whether he’s a good player, it’s whether he helps you win. If we end up having to let him go for no return because we can’t figure out how to fit him into our long term plans, then by definition that’s a failure that is on the GM

I don't think Koby (and JBB) will get to the point where they will let Sexton go for no return. If Koby can't make it work somehow with trading Sexton or getting the pieces to make the core work, then he will be out. Someone will come and give their vision of how to build this team out with Sexton and the rest of the core. I don't think Gilbert is going to buy into a vision from Koby of just letting Sexton walk and give him another chance to try to keep building the team.

 

[avs2000]

yes Okoro, fixed it.

my point about Sexton was not that he’s a bad player. He’s a pretty good player. It’s that the test of a pick isn’t whether he’s a good player, it’s whether he helps you win. If we end up having to let him go for no return because we can’t figure out how to fit him into our long term plans, then by definition that’s a failure that is on the GM

Is sexton preventing us from winning. Since he has been here there was no chance we were going to win no matter what he did

 

[CavsKermit]

yes Okoro, fixed it.

my point about Sexton was not that he’s a bad player. He’s a pretty good player. It’s that the test of a pick isn’t whether he’s a good player, it’s whether he helps you win. If we end up having to let him go for no return because we can’t figure out how to fit him into our long term plans, then by definition that’s a failure that is on the GM

I don't know that we need to select a cornerstone player at No. 8 is a fair test. They're rarely available in that range. The test should be are they talented enough to get you a better fitting player in a trade if there are fit and/or construction issues down the road. What absolutely destroys rebuilds, or makes them go on in perpetuity, is missing altogether on picks. It's why certain teams like the Kings, or until recently, the Suns, stay in the basement.

Let me put it this way, the last GM the Cavs had who has drafted as well Altman was Embry, and there are decades between the two.

 

[Ozone]

That seems unrealistic. The Wolves would beat that pretty easily. I'm lukewarm on the idea of adding Simmons, but if we do, it will cost at least one real asset and Rubio's contract might be the filler instead of Love.

Yep Love and a couple 2nds is no where near Morey's inflated Simmons value but that is all I would see the Cavs giving up knowing the toxic environment they would be creating by trading for a headcase like Simmons in the first place.