Landscape of the AFC North

[Selby]

They just lost, arguably, the greatest leader in the history of sports. I hate the guy, really, but it's true. That cannot be discounted. They will probably lose one of the greatest S to ever play the game. That's some pretty big shoes to fill in the middle of your D. I'm not sure anyone can definitively say anything about that team right now.

They did fine without Ray Lewis for most of the regular season when he was out. Ed Reed will hurt a lot, I'll agree on that one.

Either way, they still have a solid team even without those guys. It isn't what it used to be, I'm not going to argue that. But their roster as it is right now could still probably be competitive in the division.

 

[Triplethreat]

They did fine without Ray Lewis for most of the regular season when he was out. Ed Reed will hurt a lot, I'll agree on that one.

Either way, they still have a solid team even without those guys. It isn't what it used to be, I'm not going to argue that. But their roster as it is right now could still probably be competitive in the division.

And we're better than them after those losses.

We should have beat them in Baltimore on that TNF game, and we likely would have beat them BOTH times if they don't have Ellerbe, Reed, Lewis, Boldin, etc., etc.




Their offense is just not that explosive. Joe Flacco, Torrey Smith, and Ray Rice really isn't enough. What? Jacoby Jones is their number 2 now? That's awful.

 

[Giambiwannabe7]

They did fine without Ray Lewis for most of the regular season when he was out. Ed Reed will hurt a lot, I'll agree on that one.

Either way, they still have a solid team even without those guys. It isn't what it used to be, I'm not going to argue that. But their roster as it is right now could still probably be competitive in the division.

Ya, and one of the guys who stepped up while he was hurt, Ellerbe, is also now gone in FA. Then there's that Kruger guy. Lots of question marks on that team right now, imo.

 

[RealKingofCleve]

And we're better than them after those losses.

We should have beat them in Baltimore on that TNF game, and we likely would have beat them BOTH times if they don't have Ellerbe, Reed, Lewis, Boldin, etc., etc.

You have been sipping on someting. Are the Browns headed in the right direction? Hopefully, many seem to think so. Are they better than the defending super bowl champions? Definitely not. They still have a very good quarterback, multiple playmakers on offense, and some of the best defensive players in the league (Ngata, Suggs, Webb).

 

[Selby]

Plus the best coordinator staff in football? Plus the sixth pick in the draft? Plus a year of experience under the belts of our young guys? Plus our best offensive threat now fully healthy? Need I continue?

All positives, I agree. Doesn't mean we are going to win the division, or even be close.

I don't think people are understanding the point I'm trying to make. I'm not just bitching about the Browns because I'm a negative Nancy. I see next year as being a potential stepping stone for the Browns. And what I'm saying is, we might actually show improvement. We haven't shown improvement in the last five years is the point I'm trying to make. This year could be a year for that. Just because I predicted 7 wins, that is not a knock against the Browns. If anything, I'm giving them credit and saying they will finally get the ball rolling and be onto something. Even after the draft this year, the roster is not ready (in my opinion) to make a run at a division title.

Basically to sum everything up: The Browns could very well show improvement next year and win more games, but I'll hold off before I say they are going to compete for the division.

 

[Triplethreat]

You have been sipping on someting. Are the Browns headed in the right direction? Hopefully, many seem to think so. Are they better than the defending super bowl champions? Definitely not. They still have a very good quarterback, multiple playmakers on offense, and some of the best defensive players in the league (Ngata, Suggs, Webb).

They just lost half of their defense. Reed, Ellerbe, Ray are 3 of their top 5 players on that side. That's a gigantic hit that everyone just seems to be brushing off. Defensively, we have a pro-bowl caliber CB, MLB. We also have above average starters at both OLB spots, SS, and all players on the D-Line. (This will be improved with the #6 pick in all likelihood, pro-bowler? We'll see if Lombardi can pull through.) Is the Browns defense better than the Ravens? It's pretty close, depends on how the #6 pick pans out. If we land a true pass-rushing OLB at that spot, and sign a second corner I say yes.

Offensively we have a LOT of talent. Trent Richardson is an All-Pro talent, he has the ability to be a top 3 running back, Alex Mack and Joe Thomas are both Pro-bowler's and Schwartz was a bright spot as a rookie. Our WR corp is much better than the Ravens after the loss of Boldin. We have speed in Flash Gordon (arguably the best rookie WR), and we also have a young, but developing Greg Little who came on late last year. The QB and Guard spots are still question marks, and a veteran WR presence is needed. Is the Browns offense better than the Ravens offense? If Pitta leaves it's close, I maybe still give a slight edge to the Ravens because of the difference of Flacco and Weeden, but a loss of playmakers and the development of the ones here in Cleveland could change that.

 

[Triplethreat]

All positives, I agree. Doesn't mean we are going to win the division, or even be close.

I don't think people are understanding the point I'm trying to make. I'm not just bitching about the Browns because I'm a negative Nancy. I see next year as being a potential stepping stone for the Browns. And what I'm saying is, we might actually show improvement. We haven't shown improvement in the last five years is the point I'm trying to make. This year could be a year for that. Just because I predicted 7 wins, that is not a knock against the Browns. If anything, I'm giving them credit and saying they will finally get the ball rolling and be onto something. Even after the draft this year, the roster is not ready (in my opinion) to make a run at a division title.

Basically to sum everything up: The Browns could very well show improvement next year and win more games, but I'll hold off before I say they are going to compete for the division.

 

[Selby]

2008: 4-12
2009: 5-11
2010: 5-11
2011: 4-12
2012: 5-11

Not sure what improvement you see.

 

[Soda]

2008: 4-12
2009: 5-11
2010: 5-11
2011: 4-12
2012: 5-11

Not sure what improvement you see.

My man. If you didn't see player development last year, I'm not sure what you're watching. The record sucks, but not all the players do.. Rookies don't usually make a huge impact in their first season and there were a bunch playing significant time by design.

This looking at the record exclusively to make an argument is the most obtuse viewpoint on any topic on this forum, in my opinion.

 

[Scholar]

2008: 4-12
2009: 5-11
2010: 5-11
2011: 4-12
2012: 5-11

Not sure what improvement you see.

There ya go. Looking at things in a vacuum like team record is the only measurement of improvement. It's getting really hard to take your opinion seriously any more considering you are the one who pulled the "same old Browns" card.

 

[Triplethreat]

2008: 4-12
2009: 5-11
2010: 5-11
2011: 4-12
2012: 5-11

Not sure what improvement you see.

I see the improvement ON THE FIELD.

SOS varies each year, so record only relates somewhat to what you're talking about. The only way to gauge improvement is by watching the games on the screen.

 

[Selby]

My man. If you didn't see player development last year, I'm not sure what you're watching. The record sucks, but not all the players do.. Rookies don't usually make a huge impact in their first season and there were a bunch playing significant time by design.

This looking at the record exclusively to make an argument is the most obtuse viewpoint on any topic on this forum, in my opinion.

There ya go. Looking at things in a vacuum like team record is the only measurement of improvement. It's getting really hard to take your opinion seriously any more considering you are the one who pulled the "same old Browns" card.

I see the improvement ON THE FIELD.

SOS varies each year, so record only relates somewhat to what you're talking about. The only way to gauge improvement is by watching the games on the screen.

Look, I see where you guys are coming from. I'll agree, we have added some nice young players the past two off-seasons. But adding nice young players doesn't mean you have improved. At some point, these guys have to perform on the field and show that they have improved as a team. The best way to show that is by winning more games.

And like I said before, I don't see why we can't actually show improvement in the W/L column this year. I just don't see the division being a realistic goal this year.

 

[RealKingofCleve]

They just lost half of their defense. Reed, Ellerbe, Ray are 3 of their top 5 players on that side. That's a gigantic hit that everyone just seems to be brushing off. Defensively, we have a pro-bowl caliber CB, MLB. We also have above average starters at both OLB spots, SS, and all players on the D-Line. (This will be improved with the #6 pick in all likelihood, pro-bowler? We'll see if Lombardi can pull through.) Is the Browns defense better than the Ravens? It's pretty close, depends on how the #6 pick pans out. If we land a true pass-rushing OLB at that spot, and sign a second corner I say yes.

Offensively we have a LOT of talent. Trent Richardson is an All-Pro talent, he has the ability to be a top 3 running back, Alex Mack and Joe Thomas are both Pro-bowler's and Schwartz was a bright spot as a rookie. Our WR corp is much better than the Ravens after the loss of Boldin. We have speed in Flash Gordon (arguably the best rookie WR), and we also have a young, but developing Greg Little who came on late last year. The QB and Guard spots are still question marks, and a veteran WR presence is needed. Is the Browns offense better than the Ravens offense? If Pitta leaves it's close, I maybe still give a slight edge to the Ravens because of the difference of Flacco and Weeden, but a loss of playmakers and the development of the ones here in Cleveland could change that.

No... Just no on so many levels. Ray was not Ray last year and has been washed up for a while. Reed is definitely replacable at this point in his career aswell. The Ravens d-line is still better than the Browns. They have arguably the 2 best defensive players in the game in Ngata and Suggs. I'll take that with my defensive and build around it. For offense, this team has one real nice receiver, a good line, a good running back, and thats about it. So much work needs to be done there.

 

[RealKingofCleve]

Look, I see where you guys are coming from. I'll agree, we have added some nice young players the past two off-seasons. But adding nice young players doesn't mean you have improved. At some point, these guys have to perform on the field and show that they have improved as a team. The best way to show that is by winning more games.

And like I said before, I don't see why we can't actually show improvement in the W/L column this year. I just don't see the division being a realistic goal this year.

It's not. Same people say this every year. Last year, we were supposed to see a jump. Sorry, I watched all the games and did not see one. The defense actually took a pretty big step back. Oh and still no quarterback.

 

[Triplethreat]

Look, I see where you guys are coming from. I'll agree, we have added some nice young players the past two off-seasons. But adding nice young players doesn't mean you have improved. At some point, these guys have to perform on the field and show that they have improved as a team. The best way to show that is by winning more games.

And like I said before, I don't see why we can't actually show improvement in the W/L column this year. I just don't see the division being a realistic goal this year.

We went out and compete with every single team in this division last year. That's improvement in itself and seeing our foes get weaker while we're getting stronger doesn't give you the slightest bit of hope that we can win this division?

The difference between the top and bottom teams of the AFCN has shrunk tremendously and it showed last year, with all the losses and age of the Steelers/Ravens, it's not hard to envision a scenario where the Browns actually beat these teams and are in the Division chase until the end.