MLB Collective Bargaining Discussion

[The Human Q-Tip]

Yeah as someone that is absolutely thrilled with a maybe 3k bonus at the end of the year, i cant even fathom the thought that 20k-40k isnt worth possibly playing an extra month of a sport.

Thing is...it's really not an extra month. It's one more round -- maybe an extra week/week and a half, tops.

Right now, you have 10 teams. 4 play a first-round play-in game, winners advance, so then you're down to eight for the LDS, LCS, and WS. 16 teams would mean that every team would play in that first round. I suspect it wouldn't have been just one game, but it could have been a 3, 5, or (unlikely) 7 game series. But after that one round, you're already down to 8 teams and you're slotted right back into the LDS, LCS, and WS.

So for that one extra round of games, the owners were offering an extra $25M - which is as much as the players are going to make in the next three rounds combined. In the context of what MLB players usually make for the playoffs, that's a good deal. And it is still better than what players in other sports receive even in a normal year.

I just can't figure out why they didn't even counter on expanded playoffs for this season unless they truly didn't want to play them regardless of the money..

 

[Derek]

Personally, I see expanded playoffs as a detriment to the game I love.

However, I'm getting the sense that some of you wanted to see them, and that piques my curiosity. Care to explain why?

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Thing is...it's really not an extra month. It's one more round -- maybe an extra week/week and a half, tops.

Right now, you have 10 teams. 4 play a first-round play-in game, winners advance, so then you're down to eight for the LDS, LCS, and WS. 16 teams would mean that every team would play in that first round. I suspect it wouldn't have been just one game, but it could have been a 3, 5, or (unlikely) 7 game series. But after that one round, you're already down to 8 teams and you're slotted right back into the LDS, LCS, and WS.

So for that one extra round of games, the owners were offering an extra $25M - which is as much as the players are going to make in the next three rounds combined. In the context of what MLB players usually make for the playoffs, that's a good deal. And it is still better than what players in other sports receive even in a normal year.

I just can't figure out why they didn't even counter on expanded playoffs for this season unless they truly didn't want to play them regardless of the money..

Bob and Joe work together.

Bob: "Hey Joe, you know how you work on-calls Saturdays for $100? Well, double that and take the whole weekend for me. Ok? It's going to make me a LOT of money."

Joe: "Uh, what's in it for me?"

Bob: "Well, you know how for a Saturday, you've made a hundred bucks? Well, for doing both Saturday and Sunday, you're going to get about $60 total!"

Joe: "That doesn't sound like a good deal"

Joe's such an asshole.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Personally, I see expanded playoffs as a detriment to the game I love.

However, I'm getting the sense that some of you wanted to see them, and that piques my curiosity. Care to explain why?

Just because the shortened season won't be doing the usually good job of separating the wheat from the chaff in terms of which teams make the playoffs. So I'd rather expand them for this year only to ensure most of the truly competitive teams make it.

 

[bob2the2nd]

If that's the case, it's even less money than I thought.

Lets break this down. Lets say this extra round of playoffs was best of 5 (most likely) that means for half the league there would be all of 3-5 extra games on top of what the general playoffs look like now. Right now the median salary in baseball is ~1.5 million (it was 1.65, now its 1.4). That means over a 162 game season the median baseball player makes 9200/game. So if EVERY PLAYER got an extra 20-40k for this extra round of playoffs, that means for the median player who is participating in the playoffs they are getting paid their normal salary for those games (maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less) just depending on what the actual number is and how long a series lasts. That said this was for EVERY PLAYER. meaning that half the league is getting paid for those extra games even if they didnt play it.

This is my problem with the players turning down the owners final offer. This is nothing more than a game at the end of the day and the players are paid on their ability to bring in fans. If you piss off those fans, they are going to stop coming to see the sport (like they did after the 94 strike), and as such salaries are going to fall. So when the players are complaining that they ONLY getting their normal salary for at most an extra 5 games, they come off extremely bad. Combined with their now obviously fake "when and where" slogan i feel completely and totally off put from the sport of baseball. For the 2nd time in 25 years. The players had this fucking in the bag, all they had to do was sign on the dotted line, and they punted.

So this is my problem. The owners offered the players more money, more games, the adequate compensation for an extra 3-5 fucking games for some expanded playoffs and the players mad a big stink about and and said no. All so they could hold out the incredibly small option of suing the owners.

 

[Derek]

Just because the shortened season won't be doing the usually good job of separating the wheat from the chaff in terms of which teams make the playoffs. So I'd rather expand them for this year only to ensure most of the truly competitive teams make it.

My worry, even on a single-season basis, is that then the already discounted short season gets turned into a glorified spring training.

 

[LL3]

Just because the shortened season won't be doing the usually good job of separating the wheat from the chaff in terms of which teams make the playoffs. So I'd rather expand them for this year only to ensure most of the truly competitive teams make it.

Well said. This season, if it hopefully comes to be, has a sense of oddity and randomness to it that MLB seasons do not. Expanded playoffs would have set up a tournament field that seems fitting in this circumstance. I would not have liked to see it in a hypothetical full season 2021.

I think we are destined for playoff expansion after 2021, but I hope that it moves to 12 rather than 16.

One element I do not enjoy in the present system is the one game playoff for the wild cards. After battling over a long 6 month season, I would like to see that be a best of three rather than one and done.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

My worry, even on a single-season basis, is that then the already discounted short season gets turned into a glorified spring training.

That could happen...but given how short the season is, even a very good team that slacks off may find itself on the outside looking in. Not to mention seeding.

Also...if the players can't stay interested even for a 60 game season - just two lousy months - then maybe @bob2the2nd is right, and they don't deserve many of the fans they have.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Lets break this down. Lets say this extra round of playoffs was best of 5 (most likely) that means for half the league there would be all of 3-5 extra games on top of what the general playoffs look like now. Right now the median salary in baseball is ~1.5 million (it was 1.65, now its 1.4). That means over a 162 game season the median baseball player makes 9200/game. So if EVERY PLAYER got an extra 20-40k for this extra round of playoffs, that means for the median player who is participating in the playoffs they are getting paid their normal salary for those games (maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less) just depending on what the actual number is and how long a series lasts. That said this was for EVERY PLAYER. meaning that half the league is getting paid for those extra games even if they didnt play it.

This is my problem with the players turning down the owners final offer. This is nothing more than a game at the end of the day and the players are paid on their ability to bring in fans. If you piss off those fans, they are going to stop coming to see the sport (like they did after the 94 strike), and as such salaries are going to fall. So when the players are complaining that they ONLY getting their normal salary for at most an extra 5 games, they come off extremely bad. Combined with their now obviously fake "when and where" slogan i feel completely and totally off put from the sport of baseball. For the 2nd time in 25 years. The players had this fucking in the bag, all they had to do was sign on the dotted line, and they punted.

So this is my problem. The owners offered the players more money, more games, the adequate compensation for an extra 3-5 fucking games for some expanded playoffs and the players mad a big stink about and and said no. All so they could hold out the incredibly small option of suing the owners.

The players have contracts agreeing to a certain rate, and they said "Hey, we know this COVID thing sucks. Instead of holding you to our contracts, we'll cut our salaries in relation to the number of games being played"

The owners refused, and made every demand in the book. Basically, give us our golden goose and any piece of leverage we could ever ask for in a CBA that's due to be renegotiated shortly, or no deal.

So, there was no deal.

When you justify your profits in prosperous times by saying "I'm taking on the risk!" then you don't get to cry poor and expect everyone else to bail you out when risk actually comes around.

'When and where' certainly wasn't fake. It was saying "look, we're done with this shit. Just force the season to start like we agreed that you could and let's fucking play" which is exactly what happened.

 

[Derek]

Lets break this down. Lets say this extra round of playoffs was best of 5 (most likely) that means for half the league there would be all of 3-5 extra games on top of what the general playoffs look like now. Right now the median salary in baseball is ~1.5 million (it was 1.65, now its 1.4). That means over a 162 game season the median baseball player makes 9200/game. So if EVERY PLAYER got an extra 20-40k for this extra round of playoffs, that means for the median player who is participating in the playoffs they are getting paid their normal salary for those games (maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less) just depending on what the actual number is and how long a series lasts. That said this was for EVERY PLAYER. meaning that half the league is getting paid for those extra games even if they didnt play it.

This is my problem with the players turning down the owners final offer. This is nothing more than a game at the end of the day and the players are paid on their ability to bring in fans. If you piss off those fans, they are going to stop coming to see the sport (like they did after the 94 strike), and as such salaries are going to fall. So when the players are complaining that they ONLY getting their normal salary for at most an extra 5 games, they come off extremely bad. Combined with their now obviously fake "when and where" slogan i feel completely and totally off put from the sport of baseball. For the 2nd time in 25 years. The players had this fucking in the bag, all they had to do was sign on the dotted line, and they punted.

So this is my problem. The owners offered the players more money, more games, the adequate compensation for an extra 3-5 fucking games for some expanded playoffs and the players mad a big stink about and and said no. All so they could hold out the incredibly small option of suing the owners.

You've said the bolded many times, and it's still not true. I don't care to argue at an impasse though.

As far as the rest of your post goes, we philosophically disagree. I still don't understand why your anger isn't focused on players AND owners, but I doubt I ever will.

Personally, given the extreme circumstances, this worked out as well as possible IMO
Ultimately, I think both sides did their best

That could happen...but given how short the season is, even a very good team that slacks off may find itself on the outside looking in. Not to mention seeding.

Also...if the players can't stay interested even for a 60 game season - just two lousy months - then maybe @bob2the2nd is right, and they don't deserve many of the fans they have.

I'm not worried about the players losing focus. I'm worried about it actually not mattering. That makes it tough to get invested. Even when NBA teams play hard during the season, it's tough for me to care because I know you don't even have to be good to make the playoffs.

I'm honestly baffled by the bolded.

 

[bob2the2nd]

The players have contracts agreeing to a certain rate, and they said "Hey, we know this COVID thing sucks. Instead of holding you to our contracts, we'll cut our salaries in relation to the number of games being played"

The owners refused, and made every demand in the book. Basically, give us our golden goose and any piece of leverage we could ever ask for in a CBA that's due to be renegotiated shortly, or no deal.

So, there was no deal.

When you justify your profits in prosperous times by saying "I'm taking on the risk!" then you don't get to cry poor and expect everyone else to bail you out when risk actually comes around.

'When and where' certainly wasn't fake. It was saying "look, we're done with this shit. Just force the season to start like we agreed that you could and let's fucking play" which is exactly what happened.

current negotiation is not future negotiation. and both sides deserve an INCREDIBLE amount of scrutiny over thinking those 2 things were related. COVID brought special circumstances, and instead of BOTH sides working to over come these special circumstances and being the first sport back BOTH SIDES decided they were more worried about getting fucked in the ass in 2 years, versus making sure they were making money now.

the owners massively fucked up, and when the players had a chance to right the ship and take control, they burned it all ot the fucking ground in hopes they could collect some extra money out of hte ashes.

 

[Derek]

Well said. This season, if it hopefully comes to be, has a sense of oddity and randomness to it that MLB seasons do not. Expanded playoffs would have set up a tournament field that seems fitting in this circumstance. I would not have liked to see it in a hypothetical full season 2021.

I think we are destined for playoff expansion after 2021, but I hope that it moves to 12 rather than 16.

One element I do not enjoy in the present system is the one game playoff for the wild cards. After battling over a long 6 month season, I would like to see that be a best of three rather than one and done.

If they go to 12, I guess a three-game series would make sense since a division winner would be included in the first round of games.

Otherwise, I like the one-game playoff. It makes winning your division important.

 

[LL3]

current negotiation is not future negotiation. and both sides deserve an INCREDIBLE amount of scrutiny over thinking those 2 things were related. COVID brought special circumstances, and instead of BOTH sides working to over come these special circumstances and being the first sport back BOTH SIDES decided they were more worried about getting fucked in the ass in 2 years, versus making sure they were making money now.

the owners massively fucked up, and when the players had a chance to right the ship and take control, they burned it all ot the fucking ground in hopes they could collect some extra money out of hte ashes.

Now say it with a little passion, Bob.

 

[LL3]

Otherwise, I like the one-game playoff. It makes winning your division important.

I understand that rationale, but one game playoff (not a tie breaker) just does not feel right to me. So it goes...

 

[bob2the2nd]

Bob and Joe work together.

Bob: "Hey Joe, you know how you work on-calls Saturdays for $100? Well, double that and take the whole weekend for me. Ok? It's going to make me a LOT of money."

Joe: "Uh, what's in it for me?"

Bob: "Well, you know how for a Saturday, you've made a hundred bucks? Well, for doing both Saturday and Sunday, you're going to get about $60 total!"

Joe: "That doesn't sound like a good deal"

Joe's such an asshole.

so as i broke down this is off. The owners were willing to pay ALL of the players (including those not in the playoffs) for an extra 3-5 games of baseball for half the teams, and it was equal to the amount of money the median player makes per game.

This was baseball asking half the teams to give up 1 extra week for pay for everyone.

I have no idea if this was the straw the broke the camels back (and i cant imagine it was), but the fact that the players werent willing to do this is just sickening. They play a fucking sport for a living, if they cant play 1 extra week for the same pay they are already making, then i dont know what to tell you. Especially after they screamed they wanted more games played