The Official MMA Thread

[CBBI]

Ok, so it is weight class related. I would have thought that UFC would pay more than WEC, but if they aren't going to add the lower weightclasses, may as well stay at WEC. Faber would get rocked at 55 - I don't think he hits hard enough.

Torres is so lanky, it makes his jujitsu great. He still needs a little polish, but mentally, he is tough as nails.

The WEC is owned by the Zuffa (Fertitta Brothers + Dana White) which is the same group that owns the UFC, so I don't think fighter pay is much of an issue there.

There is talk that the UFC will becoming strictly a higher weight class organization and the WEC will become the lighter weight class organization.

Not sure if it will ever actually happen, but the Zuffa is treating the UFC/WEC as separate, but equal entities.

 

[Mac]

Man, 135???? That is so damn little...

 

[RuanuLaw]

I could'nt disagree with you more. You obviously don't watch very much MMA or you would'nt feel this way.



Mixed Martial Arts is fighting in the purist form. Beat your opponent by any means necessary(Within the rules). Your statement is like saying "I hate NBA because all they do is dunk. I real basketball player would out shoot his opponent" There are so many facets to fighting. You have to be solid in ALL forms of fighting. How is making an opponent Tapout NOT beating them like a man? I think its the opposite. You are making them submit to you. You are making them say "I give up, It hurts to bad and I can't take it" That is worse than knocking someone out. I LOVE big knockouts and most fights still end in them in the UFC and WEC. You just have too be more rounded these days because nowadays, people have more means to become better fighters and fighters are flat out better in this day and age.



There is so much wrong with this, I don't even know where to start. Not trying to act like a know it all because i'm certainly not but these comments couldnt be further from the truth. UFC, Dream, IFL,WEC and all of the other leagues have got the most brutal fighters and fights in the world. Fights are more barbaric than ever these days because fighters have more experience and have evolved too endure more. I have seen some of the biggest bloodbaths in MMA that I have ever seen in the past year. Grappling is probably the most important factor to fighting because it sets you up for ground and pound.(How MOST fighters lose). You know, Like Kimbo got his face caved in for 2 minutes straight and was pretty much out cold when the ref saved the money tickets ass Saturday night. As far as submissions go, If you don't want me to snap your f'ing arm in two pieces, learn how to protect yourself and fight. That's part of brawling my friend.



I'm sorry but Kimbo is a bum. He couldn't stand with 75% of the elite Heavyweights. He was saved in his fight Saturday. he is slow, his chin is questionable and his power is shoddy. He would be knocked out by elite fighters 100 pounds smaller then him. Most fighters like to stay on their feet. That's nothing fresh. Sooner than later, he will have to fight someone with just a decent game and Kimbo will be knocked out (Not submitted) Bank on it.



Please do us both a favor and watch just 1 UFC or WEC event and come back to this thread after doing so, so i can hear your opinion then. In UFC 84(Last week) 4 of the 5 main fights ended in Knockouts. Last night at WEC 34, 4 of the 5 main fights also ended in Knockout. All but the final championship fight that was 5 rounds of nothing but standing and slugging.

I always appreciate others opinions and respect them but you have no idea what you are talking about.

Tapping out seems like a "Oh well, you just got caught in a bad spot. We'll just chalk this up to a 'luck of the draw' because the other guy got lucky and got you in a bad possition."

Whenever I (I am sure others will agree) see a tappout I get no emotion out of it. I am like, "ok, this guy won because they just rolled around, near the fence, and the other guy was just careless, but it could have gone either way"

There is something wrong nowadays when you have a 3 match card, and all three end up the same way. SUBMITION.

There is no fun in tapping out. And it is unmanly. Period. Ask yourself. When do you get energy when watching MMA? Is it when there is a roll-around and then someone taps out, or when Kimbo is delivering sick-ass blows to people's jaws and them looking like they just got hit by a mack truck?

I think we know the answer.



And you make claims that a 100-less lbs elite guy can knock Kimbo out. I would like to think NOT! That guy MAY make Kimbo tappout, but not blow his jaw appart.



And just because one card had a lot of the good old fashion fights, does not mean that is the norm. Its the exception.

 

[MattyJames]

I love the way torres fights. He is a bad mofo. Maeda was game though, but his training failed him IMO and Torres just started to T off on that eye. Torres is my favorite. Faber is whack, but he is nasty. They ride his jock hard, but he is the face of WEC. Faber was quicker, but I am not convinced that he is capable of hurting Pulver, even though he beat him. That Faber-Pulver was really good for the sport on many levels.

Any thoughts on whether or not Faber or Torres would be any good in the UFC or Pride? Why wouldn't they take that next step (weight class differences)?

The entire card was fantastic (Besides the opening fight). That was the first time ive seen Torres fight and I was more than impressed. He is an animal. Faber is a freak of nature as well and his fight with Pulver was incredible. He's a little too flashy for my tastes but I would never discredit his natural talent and fighting ability. I don't think it would suit him well to go up in weight because like previously said, I don't think he has the power to hang with 155 pounders. What I WOULD pay to see is a catch weight fight between him and Torres at 140. That would be a war. Given Faber's height and muscle mass, I don't think it would be too difficult to cut another 5 pounds and lose much strengh. Same goes for Torres. He is listed at 5 10'!!! It would suit him well to add 5 pounds or even 10 and try to take BOTH belts.

Say what you will about Zuffa or Dana White but they do things the right way and are the reason that the UFC and now the WEC are as successful as they are.

Man, 135???? That is so damn little...

I was thinking the same thing during the prefights but after watching both bouts, I have no doubt that both of those guys would have no trouble knocking me out and I go 2 bills. Nothing but respect for these guys. WEC has come a long way in a short time. If you haven't had a chance to see these guys fight. Turn on Versus at any time of the day. WEC has become the staple of the channel and they show MMA 75% of the time anymore.

 

[RuanuLaw]

Making them tap out is beating them like a man, it's making them quit. I wanna see you get tied up in a submission hold by matt hughes and then not quit.



Depends what weight division you're watching. I find the Welterweight fun as hell to watch cause the guys are so quick. I hate watching people just punch all day cause they're so slow.



So you like repetativeness is what you're saying. BORING



If you want to see off the ground style, then why the hell are you watching MIXED Martial Arts? It has the word "mixed" for a reason. If you wanna see stand around punch punch uppercut, jab; Watch boxing!



Who cares, Kimbo aint anybody. He isn't even close to what Tyson was.

Like I said above, just cause you can be technical, it does not make you a man. When you see two people in a street fight, when is the time that the crowd looses the "roar"? Its when the fights go on the ground and someone has to break them up. When the guys are standing there exchanging blows people around are going crazy.

If you got in a fight and lost, how would you hate to lose by? KO or tappout? I don't know about you, but I would rather "submit" than get knocked the **** out. Getting KO-ed leaves no doubt in people's minds. But submition is always doubtful. There is a reason for that.

Back in the old days when barbarianism rulled the world, submitting and tapping out was not an option.


I agree, sometimes the light weights are funner to watch cause they are full of energy and they are more likely to keep the fight energizing.


How can you say Kimbo's fighting style is boring, but turn around and deffend the rollaround/wrestle style? C'MON!

Did you guys see Kimbo roll/throw that dude over when Kimbo was on his back? Kimbo just grabbed him and threw him off. I don't know about you, but that was one of the tightest ground moves I have see in a while in MMA. That made me go, "Damn, that dude got power to lift someone off of him like that."


Mixed Martial Arts! Break that down for me. A mix of martial arts. I don't know about you, but the last time I checked wrestling was never really a "Martial Art".

 

[Mac]

I still think Kimbo will get murked in the MMA but I like his style. He just isn't trained enough to compete with the elite guys. He would get slaughtered.

I like to see people get choked out, that gets my hype. But an arm bar and even worse, a leg bar or stuff like that is boring..

 

[RuanuLaw]

I still think Kimbo will get murked in the MMA but I like his style. He just isn't trained enough to compete with the elite guys. He would get slaughtered.

I like to see people get choked out, that gets my hype. But an arm bar and even worse, a leg bar or stuff like that is boring..

I agree with you 100%. I can definetly see that the elite dudes would out-quick him to some nasty submitions. But I doubt many fighters have the chins to withstand some of his nasty blows.


Also, I am more than sure that if the fight went on, he would have KO James Thompson. When the ref stoped the fight after Kimbo gave him a few good hits, that dude was looking like, "What just happened?". No way his chin could have held up much longer.

Just give Kimbo more time and he will become a much better fighter. But for now he has to keep fighting people in his class.

 

[CBBI]

No offense to you RuanuLaw, but your comments about grappling and submissions scream "casual fan". You like knockouts and bloodshed and that's fine. EVERYONE enjoys a good knockout. That's why you always see highlight shows called "Ultimate Knockouts", but you rarely see a show called "Ultimate Submissions".

That's perfectly fine though. There is room for hardcore fans and casual fans alike. I personally really enjoy when a fighter sets up a beautiful submission and actually pulls it off. For example, if the GIF below, Rouismar Palhares sets up a beautiful armbar transition off back control on Ivan Salaverry, a veteran of the sport who had never been submitted in 16 pro fights until UFC 84. This won Palhares a 75k submission of the night bonus as well.

http://i31.tinypic.com/b8qmav.jpg

 

[RuanuLaw]

No offense to you RuanuLaw, but your comments about grappling and submissions scream "casual fan". You like knockouts and bloodshed and that's fine. EVERYONE enjoys a good knockout. That's why you always see highlight shows called "Ultimate Knockouts", but you rarely see a show called "Ultimate Submissions".

That's perfectly fine though. There is room for hardcore fans and casual fans alike. I personally really enjoy when a fighter sets up a beautiful submission and actually pulls it off. For example, if the GIF below, Rouismar Palhares sets up a beautiful armbar transition off back control on Ivan Salaverry, a veteran of the sport who had never been submitted in 16 pro fights until UFC 84. This won Palhares a 75k submission of the night bonus as well.

http://i31.tinypic.com/b8qmav.jpg

No doubt. But that is because of what the sport has become. I just casually watch it now. It really is borring for me to just sit there and watch a drag.

But it is ok, because I can respect you for your appreciation of the style of submition. While I respect submition fighters, I just can't watch em for too long.


You know what, I can't wait for the day where the new trend in MMA is to take up Yoga. Then we will have all these untra-flexible fighters, and that would almost render the grapplers powerless. lol....only in a perfect world.

 

[Erbium]

I agree CBBI. I really enjoy the ground combat. The control some of those guys have over the opponent when they get on the ground is incredible. I find the chess match of jui-juitsui interesting. It's a credit to these athletes that at the very least they need to avoid submission if they are taken to the ground. If you make a mistake, you get tapped. It adds to the complexity of the sport, and being good on the ground is a great neutralizer to a big puncher like Kimbo....it's more along the lines of would a big mofo like Kimbo be able to kill a skinny guy guy who is great on the ground?

As for submissions being "weak", why? I think what you should say is the "tap out" is weak. These fights are essentially to show if Fighter A fought Fighter B to the death using MMA tactics who would win? I am pretty certain if you snapped these guys arms, legs, ankles, wrists, or choked them to unconsciouness, that the injured fighter would have virtually no chance of winning the fight if it continued. The tap is giving up. They know if it continued they would be f-d and "die"....or so to speak.

And lets not forget, the early UFC, where there were no weight classes, and even fewer rules, was dominated by Royce Gracie. He was 175 lbs and ran through much bigger opponents and dominated the competition in the early years. He made the ground game an essential component to a MMA fighter.

 

[cdt]

Rampage Jackson would slaughter Kimbo..as would Forrest Griffin.

 

[CBBI]

Rampage Jackson would slaughter Kimbo..as would Forrest Griffin.

Honestly, no one who actually understands MMA expected Kimbo to be a top 10 fighter anytime soon.

I don't really understand why people are making these claims about Kimbo. Of course someone like Rampage Jackson or Forrest Griffin would beat Kimbo. Those guys have been training MMA for 10+ years.

Kimbo has been training MMA for about 15 months now and unlike the vast majority of current MMA guys, he did not have a background in some other form of martial arts prior to making the switch to MMA.

Guys like Rampage, Couture, Henderson, Tito, Liddell, Hughes -- all those guys were former collegiate wrestlers who had a wrestling base to start out with before transitioning to MMA.

Guys like the Nogueria brothers, BJ Penn, Arona, Filho, and Fedor were all sport jiu-jitsu/combat sambo fighters before transitioning to MMA.

Guys like Anderson Silva, Marcus Davis were kick boxers/boxers/muay thai before making the switch over to MMA.

Kimbo Slice had NONE of those martial arts bases to fall back on. The guy was literally a backyard brawler who fought other backyard brawlers for a few thousand dollars.

Kimbo is taking his training very seriously, he's just not very far along into it. He went in there against a guy who had a HUGE edge on him in experience and fought the majority of the fight on the ground and STILL came out with the stoppage victory.

Is he a top 10 fighter? Of course not. Will he ever be a top 10 fighter? Not terribly likely. Would anyone with a competent ground game pound him out? Absolutely. Is he rapidly improving as a fighter? Absolutely.

 

[RuanuLaw]

Honestly, no one who actually understands MMA expected Kimbo to be a top 10 fighter anytime soon.

I don't really understand why people are making these claims about Kimbo. Of course someone like Rampage Jackson or Forrest Griffin would beat Kimbo. Those guys have been training MMA for 10+ years.

Kimbo has been training MMA for about 15 months now and unlike the vast majority of current MMA guys, he did not have a background in some other form of martial arts prior to making the switch to MMA.

Guys like Rampage, Couture, Henderson, Tito, Liddell, Hughes -- all those guys were former collegiate wrestlers who had a wrestling base to start out with before transitioning to MMA.

Guys like the Nogueria brothers, BJ Penn, Arona, Filho, and Fedor were all sport jiu-jitsu/combat sambo fighters before transitioning to MMA.

Guys like Anderson Silva, Marcus Davis were kick boxers/boxers/muay thai before making the switch over to MMA.

Kimbo Slice had NONE of those martial arts bases to fall back on. The guy was literally a backyard brawler who fought other backyard brawlers for a few thousand dollars.

Kimbo is taking his training very seriously, he's just not very far along into it. He went in there against a guy who had a HUGE edge on him in experience and fought the majority of the fight on the ground and STILL came out with the stoppage victory.

Is he a top 10 fighter? Of course not. Will he ever be a top 10 fighter? Not terribly likely. Would anyone with a competent ground game pound him out? Absolutely. Is he rapidly improving as a fighter? Absolutely.

This post is perfect.

This is how I feel about Kimbo myself. He is not superman. He is a beginner so to speak. But he has come a long way. And still has a very long ways to go.


PS-I don't care if Kimbo wins or loses. But its all cool as long as I seem him delivering Mack-Truck-Blows to people's chins, noses, and foreheads.

 

[MattyJames]

This post is perfect.

This is how I feel about Kimbo myself. He is not superman. He is a beginner so to speak. But he has come a long way. And still has a very long ways to go.


PS-I don't care if Kimbo wins or loses. But its all cool as long as I seem him delivering Mack-Truck-Blows to people's chins, noses, and foreheads.

I agree with CBBI's post as well. It is a very accurate description of Kimbo but i still feel that the point is being missed here. I UNDERSTAND where Kimbo is as a fighter and respect his prowress and heavy hands. I also respect the fact that he is trying to better himself and also feel that he will get better as a fighter. My problem with the whole EliteXC thing was the entire program as a whole. these were amateur fights yet at every opportunity, The commentators were making statements like "These are the toughest men in the world today" and asking stupid shit like "if Kimbo wins this fight should he be considered in the top 10 MMA heavyweights?" The fights were somewhat entertaining because of matchups alone and like i said earlier, the only fight that showed any professionalism whatsoever was the UFC rejects (Lawler and Smith). Kimbo has the potential to be a good fighter but will never be more than a sideshow undercard on any major fight card. he has a Looooooong way to go. Hopefully that piece of garbage Gary Shaw will learn his lesson from this and groom his meal ticket slowly instead of making asinine statements like he did on "Inside MMA" before the fight. He said something to the extent of " Kimbo is the real deal and I don't care if you fight for EliteXC, strikeforce, WEC, UFC or whatever. if you call out Kimbo Slice you better be ready to back up your words because he will knock you out". That is just ridiculous. If Shaw does something stupid and put Kimbo in the cage with a guy who can actually fight before he is ready, It could be the end of his MMA career and I don't want to see that. I want to see where Kimbo can develop and see him fight to his full potential. Again, I have nothing but respect for the guy but EliteXc, Don't try to fool new fans into believing that these are the best MMA fighters out there because you are doing nothing but hurting the reputation of the sport.

I really wish that everyone that watched the EliteXC broadcast and casual fans of the sport would have tuned into the the Versus WEC 34 on Sunday. What a fight card... I went back and watched a few of the fights again last night and it was Head and shoulders above anything that the EliteXC could ever show. Hopefully EliteXC listens to people feedback and cuts back on all of the nonsense that ruined an otherwise "Okay" fight card next time around.

Here are the medical results from Sundays WEC 34 handed down from the CSAC (California State Athletic Commission)

Eleven WEC 34 fighters issued medical suspensions
by MMAjunkie.com Staff on Jun 03, 2008 at 5:44 pm ET
The California State Athletic Commission had issued medical suspensions to 11 of the 22 fighters who took part in the June 1 "WEC: Faber vs. Pulver" event.

The show, which featured WEC featherweight champ Urijah Faber's unanimous-decision victory over Jens Pulver, took place at ARCO Arena in Sacramento, Calif., and aired live on VERSUS.

A handful of hefty 180-day suspensions were issued to the fighters, including headliners Faber (hand injury) and Pulver (eye injury).

MMAjunkie.com (www.mmajunkie.com) received the list of suspensions directly from the CSAC. The full list includes:

* Alex Nogueira: 60-day suspension due to a cut; coincides with a 45-day suspension (with no contact for 30 days) due to suffering a knockout
* Luis Do Santos: 45-day suspension with no contact for 30 days due to suffering a knockout
* Jeremy Lang: 180-day suspension days due to a left-ankle injury; coincides with 60-day suspension for a cut and a 45-day suspension (with no contact for 30 days) due to suffering a knockout
* Will Robeiro: 180-day suspension due to a right-hand injury (can be cleared early by doctor)
* Rob McCullough: 60-day suspension due to a cut
* Chuck Grigsby: indefinite suspension due to a head injury (must be cleared by a doctor)
* Mark Munoz: 180-day suspension due to a right-hand injury
* Yoshiro Maeda: 180-day suspension due to a right-eye orbital injury; coincides with 45-day suspension with no contact for 30 days due to suffering a knockout
* Miguel Torres: 60-day suspension due to a cut
* Jens Pulver: 180-day suspension due to a right-eye orbital injury
* Urijah Faber: 180-day suspension due to a right-hand injury (can be cleared early by doctor)

Link

This card is NOT the exception like Ruanulaw previously stated but quite the norm actually. Look up ANY professional fighter and look at their record. Pick any fighter. and it will clearly show that well over half of their fights end in KO,TKO or stoppage due to beatings. Also half of submissions end in fighters being choked out so that number is skewed as well.

 

[CBBI]

I agree with what you're saying Matty.

Gary Shaw is a scumbag and a general POS, but more then anything he's a successful promoter.

It's true. Of course Kimbo is being pumped up unjustly. Shaw and company HAVE to do that because they have to create this aura about Kimbo so they can get ratings. Kimbo is in the main event. Kimbo is the headliner. Kimbo is the guy the people want to see, but he's not a world champion and might not ever be one. But that isn't the point. Elite XC is BLEEDING money. They lost millions of dollars last year and this network television deal might be the only thing that can drag them closer to the black.

I don't know if any of you guys like pro wrestling or ever watched it, but back in the day there was a Ric Flair v. Randy Savage match for the WWF title in the middle of Wrestlemania VIII. The was unheard of at the time. The WWF title match ALWAYS closed the show. The main event that night was Hulk Hogan v. Sid and it ended in DQ. Everyone wanted to see Hogan, he was the one putting the butts in the seats.

It's all about headliners and money makers.

I guess the hope is, enough casual fans will tune in for the freakshow and get hooked on the legitimate fighters like Lawler/Smith etc.