there is no way we keep "Z" and GOODEN

[PIP]

keep one and fedex the other to somewhere else...

it's weird, but both of these guys couldn't guard a parked car solo. but when they play together their defense gets so much worse..

you must have at least one interior defender on this team, and neither are that, so someone has got to go-- i hope the one that's gone is "z"

here are the reasons (lets throw out the obvious- age, feet, money)

now on the court here is why IMO "z" has got to go.

#1 .size 7-3__ boards around 8 per night (now at least 3 of those are offensive boards that he tips up around the basket every night, you guys know what i mean-- where he'll shoot it miss it and keeps tipping the ball until it goes in) at 7-3... please get me at least 10 boards a night, or at least get some defensive boards please.

#2. takes way to many 18 foot jumpers.. it's great that the big man can do that, but we need somebody on the inside taking it up strong. not somebody out by the perimeter taking jumpers.. (we have no one then trying to get the boards)

#3. "DEFENSE" this is what really gets me boiling with "z"- he has no quickness, he gets so many TOUCH fouls because he cant keep up.
he doesn't ever rotate. (remember jason kidd and cliff robinson playing pick n roll, and converting it sucessfully 5 straight times on "z") (i remember toronto going small and doing the same thing with him with jalen rose and donyell marshall) (and how can we forget the disaster down the stretch in the gund when the knicks beat us at home in april with MO TAYLOR AND JAMAL CRAWFORD doing it 4 straight times down the court)

#4. brings me to pick n rol... not only is he too slow to guard it, he's never been able to do it on the offensive end.... he couldn't set a solid pick to save his foot... if were going to get some shooters we need our bigs to set screens under the basket like the wallace's do for hamilton, prince, and billups. or just look at the pick n roll action the SUNS play.

#5. there is no such thing as a transition game when "z" is in. these good teams now all start running after every shot (even makes) with "z" trailing it doesn't work. the only team that gets away with it is miami (because it's freakin shaq) and they can just wait for him to set up shop on the block, so teams can double team him and then he can kicked it out to all his open shooters. LIKE HE ALWAYS DOES.
but even houston played better when yao was out, it free'd up t-mac..

it's great that "z" has nice footwork and touch, but i want a quick center that will block shots, rebound, and play solid interior defense, and can run the break with the rest of the squad.

there is no way that "z" and gooden can play on the floor at the same time next season.. i watched that move already, i don't need a sequel

 

[Karma]

Ok lets break that 1st post down,

* Only 8 boards per game : Do we need more then that? We already are a top 3 rebounding team in the NBA. We have a power forward scooping nearly 10 per game, our small forward averages over 7, whilst our floppy headed spark plug off the bench is a board horder as well. Does Z need to rebound anymore really? Nope. Notice his history he has been surrounded by Tyrone Hill, Shawn Kemp, Carlos Boozer and Drew Gooden. Notice all these players put up there best rebounding numbers next to him? Hmmm, maybe the big fella drags the attention away, just quietly.

* Takes too many 18 footers : Z is the only player who actually drags the defenders away from the paint. He believe it or not, was our most consistent jump shooter in our team. Take that away and leBron has no room whatsoever. Should we just have Z clog the lane up all game and not allow LeBron space to work?

* Defense - Here we go again. Get rid the matador McInnis, along with the development of LeBron's defense, and our interior defense is barely an issue. The fact is, the last few years Ilgauskas has guarded the oppositions best post player whether it be the power forward or center as he was the superior front court defender compared to the power forward. Maybe we need to look past the fact he is slow. You guys get way too carried away with athletisisms being the be all end all. When Ilgauskas just has his own man to guard, you will all be silenced.

* Pick'n'roll Offense : Oh my. You watch the games when LeBron was injured this season? Obviously not. It was a pick'n'roll fest with McInnis and Ilgauskas. I thought you did not want Z standing 18 feet from the basket!!!

* Transition game : Is it just me, or am I the only one who doesn't want the center involved in the transition game? Since when is it the centers role? As for transition defense, again subtract McInnis, and we are rolling again. Our backcourt is to blame.

"center that will block shots, rebound, and play solid interior defense"

You got that in Ilgauskas.

Basketball is a positional game. It seems some people here want a squad of 6'7-6'10 guys who are all athletes and can slam it home on the break. Anyone outside that bracket is unwanted. You guys have no grasp of the basic fundamentals in basketball.

We may as well bring back Darius Miles, and see what Harold Miner is up to.

 

[Glen Infante]

Didn't Z lead the team in block shots? I do recall a few games down the stretch where Z had 5 blocks every other night.

 

[PIP]

"DO YOU NEED MORE BOARDS THEN THAT" OMG.. "WHAT" ?

hey the more boards the better.. and if you believe that j-mac was the sole problem then you didn't watch the games down the stretch where he didn't play and "z" was still terrible.

if you remember, he didn't even play when lebron dropped 56 and we still loss thanks to donyell marshall's play on "z"..

your're absolutley right i don't want "z" taking 18 foot jumpers, just cause you play pick and roll doesn't mean you have to shoot 18 footers.

does amare ? NO, does alll the spurs ? NO.. did you watch luke ridnour and jerome james pick n roll to death the spurs in game 4 i believe.

i want my big to set a pick and roll to the basket.. or set that screen so the guard can get into the middle and kick it out to an open shooter..

HELL just look at the princeton moving offense that the kings play, they pick n roll at the top of the key with bibby and brad miller all the time.. they get open jumpers all the time for their players

do you watch the pacers ? jermaine o'neal and dale davis, gets reggie miller and steven jackson open all the time. and jermaine can bang, play d, block shots, and rebound. HE DOESN'T SHOOT 18 FOOTERS all the time. he has a great low post game.

if you think "z" is all of those things your're sadly mistaken "MATE"

THE GAME is changing and i would like to strike while the iron is hot. the days of olajuwon, robinson, and ewing are over.
you have 6-11 atheltic power forward types playing center and you know what even though i miss the early 90's . i've really enjoyed alot of the play i've seen from the good teams this year (spurs, suns, mavericks) up and down and high scoring.

but you know what , the team that can play that way and still "PLAY DEFENSE" is the team that will most likley win it all "THE SPURS"

 

[Marty Mar]

If I were to pick between Z and Drew, it would be Z. Thats a no brainer.

 

[PIP]

the reason i picked drew is cause he's younger and a bit more athletic, but he's about as smart as a traffic cone.. perhaps he can be molded with the right teacher.. the problem with "z" is physical not mental.

i just don't see what everybody actually likes about ilgauskas's game. 17 and 8 (really like 17 and 5) is nice.. but not at the expense of what this team needs to play which is UPTEMPO...

 

[Mac]

Another Z thread...great.

Im not even going to argue this, there are way too many threads out there discussing this very same thing.

Another wasted thread.

 

[RichOne]

i cant believe this topic is being brought up again in another thread. i get exhausted reading about people harp on z and ask if anyone has ever watched a cavs game. i do, however, have to make a few comments...

do you watch the pacers ? jermaine o'neal and dale davis, gets reggie miller and steven jackson open all the time. and jermaine can bang, play d, block shots, and rebound. HE DOESN'T SHOOT 18 FOOTERS all the time. he has a great low post game.

that just has to be one of the most funniest things i have ever read. have you ever watched a pacers game?? i have watched reggie play his whole career and trust me nobody creates a shot for reggie except for reggie.

as for tim duncan not shooting 18 footers and banging inside?.. that is his trademark shot... mid range jumper off the back board or 15 footer from the top of the key off a pick and roll.

at any rate this whole thread is waste and the same thing has been discussed over and over again in another thread..

 

[PIP]

i can't believe this, i can't believe that, this thread has been discussed blah,blah,blah,blah,blah.. if your're not gonna comment, don't comment with anything.. i could care less about what you think of the thread, because if you haven't noticed, "most of you guys state all the same things anyways".

richone YOUR STATEMENT WAS A FREAKING JOKE!!!!!!!! i'm glad you watched reggie 18 years, but maybe you watched him like gordon gund does. if you think that reggie got his own shot off, your're so blind son...

there was so many screens set for him as he went under the basket. most of the plays had a two screen set, my god- rik smits was genius at it, and when they had antonio and dale davis, and derrick mckey he had screens set all night as he was running around the court.. (you just don't get open) what were you watching.. remember the play against the bulls 98 easten conference finals reggie hitting the game winning 3 over jordan... i'm sure he got right open with jordan on him.

as far as duncan, duncan keeps it mostly in the paint, every now and then he will take a jump shot just inside the top of the key.

he likes to shoot the 12 foot shot OFF THE GLASS, (perhaps that's what you were thinking) other then that, he does all his work in the paint...

as far as the waste, the waste was your reply, since none of it was accurate

 

[The Disector]

The biggest problem with most Cavs fans is they refuse to face the truth when it comes to hometown players and favorites.

Most of what LeBron's_Pippen says is true.

First off 8.3 rebounds per game and 3 of them being offensive means he get 5 defensive boards a night.-- Thats pathetic for a 7'3" player.

Z's offensive game is inconsistent and has no power in the post.
It really really irritates me to watch a 7'3" guy not take the man on his back right to the basket and WHA-BAM in his face or at least back him all the way down and get consistent easy layups--that's what the post is for.

Having no post strength would kill in the playoffs.

Z gets so many fouls because he is slow, very very slow.

Z does have some low post moves without a doubt and at times a good outside jump shot but other then that he really has nothing to offer an NBA team in my own opinion.

His defense outside of Cleveland is known to be atrocious in both the pick and roll and transistion.

I really hope the Cavs are smart and creative this summmer because I want them to say goodbye to Ilgauskas but I also want them to be smart enough to pick up a center who has at least some defensive presence and isn't a complete waste on offense.

I really don't think there is even an arguement about Z coming back because anyone who honestly believes Z will stay in Cleveland for under 14 million is dreaming and if you want Z to come back to Cleveland even though he wants 14 million then you shouldn't even be a Cavs fan because you're just an Ilgauskas fan.

His agent was grumbling for a max deal before the season ended(and said no way Z was taking a pay cut) and all indications are Z wants to be paid and he said coming back to the Cavs was 50/50 which to me means say goodbye because the Cavs aren't over-paying and Z isn't taking less.

 

[PIP]

exactly,

i believe in december or perhaps it was early january "z" was on a roll. shots were going in and all was well.

but when they finished up that west coast trip, the guy then fell into the hole that he seems to fall into every year. he will go 10-15 game stretches where he has no confidence in that "18 FOOT JUMPER" and they will not fall for him. yet he doesn't change it up, he will keep right on taking them instead of trying to get to the basket..

listen, i know "z" is a decent center.... He has a nice jumper, nice foot work, he also has a great UP and UNDER move, and he has a nice PUMP FAKE to draw fouls. (but he only does that early in the game)

I see alot of what you all see with him in terms of the positive. HOWEVER i also see all the other things that i mentioned in my first post on this thread, that most of you would just care to look the other way at. "WHICH IS SAD"

 

[Mac]

lol, disector got ate apart in the Z thread...there is no need to discuss this thread so Im closing it.