Isaac 3 & D Okoro - A Two Way Playing Basketball Savant

[weepinwillow]

Disagree about Stevens' motor. He played four years of college ball and wasn't drafted. He's on a two-way contract which means his pro career could end any day. He knows he has to make an impression and in a short time since his minutes may disappear once Love and Nance are back. He's going 100% every minute of every practice, not to mention the few minutes of playing time he gets.

If you think Okoro's athletic ability and motor separate him from Stevens then I'm wondering why Okoro's numbers are either the same or worse than Stevens across the board except for three-point shooting.

I don't define motor as working hard to get picked up undrafted, or stay in the league, but relentlessness in play. When Okoro plays defense he is after the ball, but controlled, he will challenge, then get back into the play on the second shot or even third shot, then get out on the break, he's rarely caught in bad position. On offense I think he'd benefit from being more aggressive, but he's playing as the 5th option, and he seems to know that and maybe accepts it a little too much. I'd also like to see them put Okoro in pick and rolls on occasion with Allen. See how he reads w/the ball, in limited time with the ball he seems to make the right pass. I also don't agree that Isaac has no touch, in limited attempts I see a guy who puts up a pretty soft shot when he needs to and can finish with either hand.
In the limited time I've seen Stevens, he has a nice in-between game, knows how to use his body to make space for his shot at the rim. Smart player, has good length to contest shots, will take a contested shot, but this makes sense, it's who he was in college, looks like a tweener F/PF a'la Teauran Prince.
All I can tell you is what I am seeing.
When I see Okoro on the floor, I trust the play at his position, the same is true for Nance, Allen, McGee, Windler, Prince (to a lesser degree) and Dotson (to an even lesser degree). I.E. they are pro's or the play like pro's. Haven't seen enough of Stevens to say the same.
So, to your point, if all things were equal, who'd be the better prospect?
Okoro has the better athletic ability, the better motor (imo), a high level hoops IQ, is nearly 4 years younger, seems to have a better 3 point shot, has solid form on his jumper and good shot selection (maybe to a fault).
Stevens knows how to play with the ball in his hands as a #1 option coming out of college, has plus athletic ability and an NBA body, good defender. Jumper isn't there, but he's not really taking it, I question his shot selection at times and sometimes he seems to force an issue into the defense, but there isn't a large enough sample size to draw too much.
I'm still seeing Okoro as the better prospect here. And I'd rather have him on the floor than Stevens, though I think they'd make a good duo to pair with Windler, Allen and Garland for some minutes.

 

[ryanf]

^ i like your take there... okoro is ready for multiple, successive actions. when he defends, he anticipates screens, knows when to go over or under, recovers, switches when caught in between, boxes out when the shot goes up, scrambles if the rebound is loose, traps when there's an opportunity.

a sports writer once described sexton's offense as something similar to patrick beverly's defense. i'd describe okoro's defense similar to rip hamilton or reggie miller on offense, always moving, always anticipating, always reading.

 

["MVP"]

Yea it's not a shot at Stevens, who has been a pleasant surprise, but Okoro's motor is one of the things that drew me to him as a prospect. So frequently at Auburn, he would face-guard the opposing team's best player for an entire game while picking up full court. A little Marcus Smart-esq. Not many guys have the athleticism / motor combination to do that effectively.

 

[BigZ94]

His rebounding last night gave me a boner

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

His rebounding last night gave me a boner

Averaging 2.8 rebounds for the season he came up with eight last night. His previous career high was five.

Exactly what he needs to do more of especially not being a scorer (8.2 points) or a passer (1.9 assists). However, Okoro is definitely getting more aggressive offensively scoring in double figures 5 of the last 7 games. However, he's still inconsistent, with five games in Feb where he scored 4 or fewer points playing 26 minutes or more.

Looking at his monthly numbers for January and February, they are practically identical across the board. His shots taken per minute have actually gone down slightly while his shooting percentage is exactly 41.2% for both months. His 3-point percentage has improved by 2 points from 30.6 to 32.6 - still not what we want. The rest of his numbers are pretty much the same.

My impression is that most of his field goal attempts are either fast break layups or spot up 3's. He's not really a factor in the half court offense. He needs to develop a pull-up 15' jump shot like Sexton and Dotson use and a better pump fake from the 3-point line to freeze his man or get him in the air.

In the second half I'm looking for more rebounds like we saw last night, continued improvement in 3-point shooting, and hopefully some kind of contribution in the half court offense besides standing in the corner. At least he's not stepping backward onto the sideline when starting to drive as much.

 

[Henry Tuttle]

I get so excited every time he’s able to actually initiate in the pick and roll. And it usually works out pretty well, I would love to see him get more chances.

The rebounding thing I’m pretty sure was just a product of coaching. I think he was told to leak out/get back on D because he obviously can rebound the ball and was just never even in the area for rebounds. I think rebounds themselves are pretty stupid and arbritrary but I’d also like to seem grab some more and bring the ball up, prod a bit, and kick back out if it’s not there. Something he seems relatively good at already, though he’s obviously had moments where he tried to force things.

 

[weepinwillow]

Okoro had a really nice game on offense, defense including a solid floor game in general.
He's gotten more comfortable taking an open 3 by and large, and now he's adding a little ball-handling to his game. He picks his spots well.
Vs Philly I think Simmons and Green got a little more respect from the officials at times on both sides (to say nothing of Embiid). He probably should have been on the line for 2 at least 3 more times, but rookies don't always get those calls.
I'd like to see him a few times with the ball in his hands in a pick and roll with Allen. His decision making is good in the limited times he has the ball.
Skys the limit.

 

[weepinwillow]

I get so excited every time he’s able to actually initiate in the pick and roll. And it usually works out pretty well, I would love to see him get more chances.

The rebounding thing I’m pretty sure was just a product of coaching. I think he was told to leak out/get back on D because he obviously can rebound the ball and was just never even in the area for rebounds. I think rebounds themselves are pretty stupid and arbritrary but I’d also like to seem grab some more and bring the ball up, prod a bit, and kick back out if it’s not there. Something he seems relatively good at already, though he’s obviously had moments where he tried to force things.

exactly.
The Cavs need to have guards who involve everyone in the offense and can defer their game and know how to pick their spots as well. They had moments last night and Isaac responded with one of his better statistical night yet, but he's been playing like that most of the season.
He doesn't need to rebound more, or shoot more or get to the line more etc.. yet. He needs to play a smart game and take what's there for now. He's been picking his spots a little more each time out, that's growth from seeing and understanding.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

I loved it last night when the Cavs came out stone cold in the third quarter and didn't get a field goal for about four minutes. When they finally got a bucket it was on an offensive rebound and put-back by Okoro. I didn't think he'd be the guy to break the ice.

Maybe Henry is right and he's been coached to get back on defense. That would explain the lack of offensive rebounds and I've seen some analysis that questions the value of going for offensive rebounds because it's a low percentage play and if unsuccessful you're behind the ball and can't defend in transition.

But what I'm looking for is defensive boards because the Cavs rank last in the NBA in defensive rebounding percentage. They're giving up way too many second chance points. Allen is a shot blocker who tends to challenge shots which force misses but take him away from the rim and leave the Cavs vulnerable to put-backs. That's why I want to see the forwards get more aggressive and quicker to the defensive glass.

I would not say Stevens is a better prospect than Okoro, but their stats are pretty much a wash as I pointed out. They're both rookies, but Stevens has four years of Big Ten experience. So based on age and experience alone I'd say Okoro has more upside, especially since Stevens apparently couldn't make a 3-pointer if the rim was twice the diameter.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

I get so excited every time he’s able to actually initiate in the pick and roll. And it usually works out pretty well, I would love to see him get more chances.

The rebounding thing I’m pretty sure was just a product of coaching. I think he was told to leak out/get back on D because he obviously can rebound the ball and was just never even in the area for rebounds. I think rebounds themselves are pretty stupid and arbritrary but I’d also like to seem grab some more and bring the ball up, prod a bit, and kick back out if it’s not there. Something he seems relatively good at already, though he’s obviously had moments where he tried to force things.

Rebounds are "pretty stupid and arbitrary"? Wow, in that case I wonder why they even bother to keep track of them.

How do you feel about wins and losses?

As for Okoro initiating the pick and roll, there's a reason they never call that play and probably don't even have it as an option. Okoro is not a good dribbler, doesn't have a good touch on floaters, and is inexperienced in decision making at the NBA level. I can't remember seeing him initiate a pick and roll yet this year and I'll be surprised if we see even one in the second half.

 

[Kouki]

Rebounding has got to be one of the sillier counting stats...contingent on so many things that are out of the player's control.

Is he guarding the best wing? He's probably on the perimeter and the gameplan is probably for him to NOT pursue defensive rebounds.

To that point, what IS the gameplan? Do we have a designated number of people we try to leak out vs. crash the glass and where does Okoro fit in that?

Who are your teammates? If you have exceptionally good rebounding teammates, your rebounds are going to go down.

Is there rebounding deference? Famously Steven Adams always ceded easy rebounds to Russ to pad his triple doubles. I think in general there is rebounding deference to vets, and in our case, Drummond.

What kind of shots is your defense forcing the opponent into? This changes the types of rebounds available.

Is the opponent crashing the offensive glass? If not then yeah your center is going to clean up a lot of uncontested rebounds and the rest of the team should be getting to the other end of the court.

He has had some really good rebounds this year, like "know where to be at the right time" rebounds. Most famously the pre-season game winner.

I don't know what it was like for him in college though.

^

 

[weepinwillow]

I would not say Stevens is a better prospect than Okoro, but their stats are pretty much a wash as I pointed out. They're both rookies, but Stevens has four years of Big Ten experience. So based on age and experience alone I'd say Okoro has more upside, especially since Stevens apparently couldn't make a 3-pointer if the rim was twice the diameter.

I think it's also pretty visible in how they play on the floor. You can see Okoro's flashes of upside along with his already smart game. Stevens doesn't seem as comfortable without the ball and will sometimes seem a little lost. I won't put that all on Lamar, as he's often forced to watch one of the G's dribble the air out of the ball.

As for Okoro initiating the pick and roll, there's a reason they never call that play and probably don't even have it as an option. Okoro is not a good dribbler, doesn't have a good touch on floaters, and is inexperienced in decision making at the NBA level. I can't remember seeing him initiate a pick and roll yet this year and I'll be surprised if we see even one in the second half.

You don't need an arsenal of floaters and crazy handles to run a pick and roll, even at the NBA level. He's not dribbling the ball off his feet, and can use both hands, plus most Centers are going to probably lay back, giving him a driving lane, typically when he has this lane he makes the pass as soon as it closes on him (by and large, that's the right read until he figures out what he's capable of), or allowing him to dribble into a shot, which he's shown himself somewhat capable of.

They should try it out on a few possessions.

 

[Henry Tuttle]

Rebounds are "pretty stupid and arbitrary"? Wow, in that case I wonder why they even bother to keep track of them.

I wouldn’t care if they stopped counting rebounds or only counted contested rebounds. Does it really matter who happens to grab the ball when there are 3 Cavs around and everyone on the other team is getting back on D? Does it really matter if Drummond gets 4 boards on one possession because he’s incapable of making a point blank shot? I’d rather they count box outs if all things were equal, but rebounds are an easily quantifiable stat so that’s why it’s counted. But just because it’s easy to quantify doesn’t mean it has value.

 

[Cavatt]

I think he really showed what his value is last night. That's the type of game I think we will start seeing more of. He said he is just trying to be aggressive.

Guys are fast in the NBA, if you only take what the defense gives you in some sense you may get nothing and always pass it off. Nothing comes easy, so you have to be agressive and force it to some extent. Both Darius and Okoro while talented have a little too much deference in their game whereas Sexton may have too little. Finding a balance with these guys will be part of them turning into a good team.

Allen is the one who has it figured out pretty much. I do like seeing Okoro rebound and score when he makes that his focus. He has a lot of talented and finished and was creative around the basket while playing some great d on Simmons.

 

[Ohioplayer00]

I wouldn’t care if they stopped counting rebounds or only counted contested rebounds. Does it really matter who happens to grab the ball when there are 3 Cavs around and everyone on the other team is getting back on D? Does it really matter if Drummond gets 4 boards on one possession because he’s incapable of making a point blank shot? I’d rather they count box outs if all things were equal, but rebounds are an easily quantifiable stat so that’s why it’s counted. But just because it’s easy to quantify doesn’t mean it has value.

There are a lot of uncontested rebounds because the league has turned in a 3 point and jump shooting league so most offensive players are out on the perimeter leaving the defense to grab easy uncontested rebounds because there’s nobody to box out most of the time!