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Josh Gordon discussion

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Josh has some insane skill, just insane. I think - that getting another competent wide receiver, who can actually be a threat and get open/catch the ball, will make him even scarier. While his touches might go down, I think he will that many more explosive plays with the additional space.

P.S. Consistency at QB, preferably one who is at least average, would also be really nice for him... and us.
 
Would anyone still take this stiff Stafford over Gordon? Stafford blows. Has the best receiver in football, and only completes 58% of his passes. That sidearm crap speaks to his head. He's just one dumb QB. To think you can seriously go anywhere with his 5 cent head? I can't believe anyone would to trade a great receiver like Gordon, for a clearly overrated QB that's only beaten FOUR winning teams in his career!

I'd trade Gordon for a franchise QB in a heartbeat. If people think Stafford is a franchise QB, then they have a very loose definition of franchise QB. I think of Tom Brady, Andrew Luck and Aaron Rodgers as franchise QB's. Not Matt Stafford!

Stafford plays the position as dumb as Weeds. He just has more talent and more talent around him. You put him on the Browns, I promise you we'd still be looking for a QB.
 
Would anyone still take Stafford over Gordon? Stafford blows. Has the best receiver in football, and only completely 58% of his passes. That sidearm craps speaks to his head. I can't believe anyone would to trade a great receiver like Gordon, for an clearly overrated QB that's only beaten FOUR winning teams in his career!

While his stats against winning teams are... alarming. I think a lot of people are forgetting that Gordon is still in trouble with the league because he had an amazing year.

This kid has had massive trouble with drugs, we don't know what's going to happen with him during the off season.
 
Would anyone still take this stiff Stafford over Gordon? Stafford blows. Has the best receiver in football, and only completely 58% of his passes. That sidearm crap speaks to his head. He's just one dumb QB. To think you can seriously go anywhere with his 5 cent head? I can't believe anyone would to trade a great receiver like Gordon, for a clearly overrated QB that's only beaten FOUR winning teams in his career!

I'd trade Gordon for a franchise QB in a heartbeat. If people think Stafford is a franchise QB, then they have a very loose definition of franchise QB. I think of Tom Brady, Andrew Luck and Aaron Rodgers as franchise QB's. Not Matt Stafford!

I'd trade Gordon for picks or a young QB (Stafford or Bradford)

I mean the kid is one bong hit away from being suspended for an entire season...
 
I'd trade Gordon for picks or a young QB (Stafford or Bradford)

I mean the kid is one bong hit away from being suspended for an entire season...

hell no. stafford isnt worth shit unless he has a all world WR to throw to. absolutely and totally overrated. At least gordon if he stops getting caught (or stops all together), can be a number 1 or 2, at least a top 5 WR in the league. stafford at best is a middle to bottom starting QB
 
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Hard to believe Brandon Weeden was a five-year veteran of minor league baseball before Matt Stafford took a collegiate snap at the University of Georgia.

I'd take Stafford all day, I'd just want to keep Gordon too. Get it done Ferry!
 
I wouldn't even want Stafford! Why would anyone want him? Don't you see? Getting a guy like him means you're married to that guy. Stuck! I rather take our position any day, the ability to make a change is at least available, then to be stuck where the Lions and Rams are. Paying millions to guys that can't get it done. Stuck with them because their contacts are enormous. Stuck because they were once first round picks, and you're suppose to still hold onto hope they can be good, when reality is saying they're just bad.

Why would anyone seriously think they'd leave those teams, come here, and make us sooo much better? They stink. If they were any good, they wouldn't be on losing teams every year. Stafford is a joke. Rodgers goes down, so does Cutler. And the guy still can't get his team in the playoffs with a great running game, the best receiver in football, and a dominate line that gets after a QB. Really?

I wouldn't trade any of our good players for him. Simply put, he stinks.
 
Hard to believe Brandon Weeden was a five-year veteran of minor league baseball before Matt Stafford took a collegiate snap at the University of Georgia.

I'd take Stafford all day, I'd just want to keep Gordon too. Get it done Ferry!

I have no idea why you hate Weeden, and love Stafford. It's almost a complete contradiction. Granted, Stafford IS BETTER. But they're identical when it comes to their style of play. Both stare down receivers, both force throws into double coverages, both have no idea how to recognize a defense. Basically, both are 10 cent heads.
 
I have no idea why you hate Weeden, and love Stafford. It's almost a complete contradiction. Granted, Stafford IS BETTER. But they're identical when it comes to their style of play. Both stare down receivers, both force throws into double coverages, both have no idea how to recognize a defense. Basically, both are 10 cent heads.

Speaking of contradictions.

But seriously though, at just 25-years-old, Stafford has everything you'd want in a QB except for the propensity to be too liberal with the ball.

Guys like him can get better with time, as he becomes a veteran he can become more efficient with the football. Dude has 60 NFL starts under his belt at 25, got to like that potential down the road.

Suffice it to say, Stafford isn't just a little bit better...and has plenty of growth left.
 
Speaking of contradictions.

But seriously though, at just 25-years-old, Stafford has everything you'd want in a QB except for the propensity to be too liberal with the ball.

Guys like him can get better with time, as he becomes a veteran he can become more efficient with the football. Dude has 60 NFL starts under his belt at 25, got to like that potential down the road.

Suffice it to say, Stafford isn't just a little bit better...and has plenty of growth left.

If he has so much room to grow, why is he regressing? Do you some of you watch him play? He's making worse mistakes than he's ever made. Come on, the guy still stares down his receivers, and doesn't check off safeties. He just flings it.

I didn't contradict myself. He's Brandon Weeden with more talent. I don't want any QB to resemble that guy, and seriously think he can win me a lot of games. He's 25, but he's no rookie. He's been playing long enough where you should see more growth. He's shown none.

What does Stafford have that you'd want so much? His mechanics are horrible. Throws the ball sidearm at times. He and both Jay Cutler have some of the most unorthodox mechanics I've ever seen from a QB. You don't have to go by me, Steve Young himself said it. I don't know why you'd seriously think this guy has so much more room to grow, just by mechanics alone. His are awful. He delivers the ball exactly the way you don't want from a QB. It's going to lead to inaccurate throws, and some bad interceptions. I'm sorry, but if a QB isn't sound mechanically in a game the so revolved on timing, it does make a significant difference in getting the ball out, and able to deliver accurate throws consistently. We've seen he can't.

Just because the guy has a strong arm, which he does, that doesn't mean he has everything you'd want from a QB. He has nothing I'd want from a QB outside his cannon arm. He can throw some darts vertically. He can make throws Weeden can't, that's basically the only difference between the two.

You're too fixated on age B00bie. Yes, we get is, Weeden is an old man, and Stafford is still young. That doesn't really mean much, when you still factor in that Stafford is the more experienced QB!

25-30 isn't that huge of a difference at an age standpoint for a QB, when you factor into playing years. It's not like its a position strongly relied on athletic ability. We're seeing it today. Guys like Brady and Manning in their late 30's still playing the position at the highest level.
 
If he has so much room to grow, why is he regressing? Do you some of you watch him play? He's making worse mistakes than he's ever made. Come on, the guy still stares down his receivers, and doesn't check off safeties. He just flings it.

I didn't contradict myself. He's Brandon Weeden with more talent. I don't want any QB to resemble that guy, and seriously think he can win me a lot of games. He's 25, but he's no rookie. He's been playing long enough where you should see more growth. He's shown none.

What does Stafford have that you'd want so much? His mechanics are horrible. Throws the ball sidearm at times. He and both Jay Cutler have some of the most unorthodox mechanics I've ever seen from a QB. You don't have to go by me, Steve Young himself said it. I don't know why you'd seriously think this guy has so much more room to grow, just by mechanics alone. His are awful. He delivers the ball exactly the way you don't want from a QB. It's going to lead to inaccurate throws, and some bad interceptions. I'm sorry, but if a QB isn't sound mechanically in a game the so revolved on timing, it does make a significant difference in getting the ball out, and able to deliver accurate throws consistently. We've seen he can't.

Just because the guy has a strong arm, which he does, that doesn't mean he has everything you'd want from a QB. He has nothing I'd want from a QB outside his cannon arm. He can throw some darts vertically. He can make throws Weeden can't, that's basically the only difference between the two.

You're too fixated on age B00bie. Yes, we get is, Weeden is an old man, and Stafford is still young. That doesn't really mean much, when you still factor in that Stafford is the more experienced QB!

25-30 isn't that huge of a difference at an age standpoint for a QB, when you factor into playing years. It's not like its a position strongly relied on athletic ability. We're seeing it today. Guys like Brady and Manning in their late 30's still playing the position at the highest level.

Weeden's age is funny, his lack of aptitude for the NFL game is not. He's clearly out of his league when it comes to the NFL game from both a physical and mental perspective.

You reference Stafford's mechanics, explaining to only illustrate that he throws the ball sidearm at times. That's not a mechanical issue. That's not really what a mechanical issue is, he's willingly altering his throwing motion to help him complete the pass. It's not something that breaks down when he's under pressure or is something that he's not cognizant of, it's done with a purpose. Whether or not that helps is certainly up for debate, but I just wanted to stress that it's not exactly a mechanical issue causing that.

Steve Young, who was one of my favorite all-time QBs growing up, did the same thing.

Stafford is the type of QB that will trust his arm regardless of the situation and it costs him at times. As he continues to get older and understand the league, he'll learn more about what he can get away with and what he can't.

I don't think he's a top 7-8 QB in the league right now. But he's certainly in the top 10-12 right now and can continue to get better.

Put him with an offensive coordinator like Norv Turner, and I think he's got the potential to get much much better. He's also a guy force-feeding Megatron despite heavy coverage because he lacks alternative weapons and the fact he should be letting Megatron try and make plays.


I've got a good amount of faith in his progression over time.
 
Stafford becomes a ghost far too often both late in games and late in the season.

He has largely been a beneficiary of playing with one of the top receivers of all time - 40% of his accumulated passing yards result from Calvin Johnson receptions.

When you have the best receiver in football, of course you're going to throw him the ball most of the time. But good quarterbacks make their teams better. I have never seen that with Stafford. A volume chucker that's never taken his team to the next level and likely never will.
 
Weeden's age is funny, his lack of aptitude for the NFL game is not. He's clearly out of his league when it comes to the NFL game from both a physical and mental perspective.

You reference Stafford's mechanics, explaining to only illustrate that he throws the ball sidearm at times. That's not a mechanical issue. That's not really what a mechanical issue is, he's willingly altering his throwing motion to help him complete the pass. It's not something that breaks down when he's under pressure or is something that he's not cognizant of, it's done with a purpose. Whether or not that helps is certainly up for debate, but I just wanted to stress that it's not exactly a mechanical issue causing that.

Steve Young, who was one of my favorite all-time QBs growing up, did the same thing.

Stafford is the type of QB that will trust his arm regardless of the situation and it costs him at times. As he continues to get older and understand the league, he'll learn more about what he can get away with and what he can't.

I don't think he's a top 7-8 QB in the league right now. But he's certainly in the top 10-12 right now and can continue to get better.

Put him with an offensive coordinator like Norv Turner, and I think he's got the potential to get much much better. He's also a guy force-feeding Megatron despite heavy coverage because he lacks alternative weapons and the fact he should be letting Megatron try and make plays.


I've got a good amount of faith in his progression over time.


Why isn't he getting better though? The idea is to grow, and he's regressed. You are going under a false assumption that he'll out grow his gun slinging ways, but that's what the Jay Cutler fans used to say too. Fast forward 6 years, and he's still doing the same stupid shit.

You're expecting Stafford to do something he's never done in his career, and that's play with his head. Recognize coverages, look off safeties, understand when to throw it away. Look to take advantage of mismatches in his favor. Things the good QB's do. Stafford often plays that backyard style of football.

There's a clear difference between Brett Favre, and players like Stafford, Cutler, and some to degree Romo that try to mimic him.

Favre played with that rare Braveheart complex where nothing ever really phased him, and that energy would transpire to the entire team. Not to mention Favre was blessed with one of the rare golden arm's the game has ever seen, and could make throws no other QB could make. Favre wasn't a complete dummy, I actually think he was a very intelligent football player. He just played wild, it was his personality. He couldn't hold back, he didn't do that once on the field. He'd be throwing for wins, instead of and managing the game for wins. That's just how he was.

As blessed, and as tough as Favre was mentally and physically, that style of play still held back his legacy, and potential to maybe have been the game's best we've ever seen.

The way Stafford plays is junk. It's wild, risky, and frankly, he's not good enough to pull it off like Favre. I don't think he'll ever change. It's who he is. It's asking someone to be who he's not, and this is who Stafford is. He's a chucker. He flings the ball around the field. Sometimes he has an idea of where its going, other times he doesn't, but still says "what the hell". It's too 50/50 to ever seriously have something like that as QB, and really expect to go anywhere.

There's a reason why it doesn't work. Defenses are smart, and great at learning how to "bait" these guys into these horrific throws too. I don't like a QB that can't be a leader on the field. There's more to be a good QB than just having a a great arm. That's why its hard finding great ones, because its hard to know how a guy thinks upstairs.

Favre was the rare exception, and every other QB that's played the game at a high level has had to understand ball management, and when to live for another down.
 
If he has so much room to grow, why is he regressing? Do you some of you watch him play? He's making worse mistakes than he's ever made. Come on, the guy still stares down his receivers, and doesn't check off safeties. He just flings it.

I didn't contradict myself. He's Brandon Weeden with more talent. I don't want any QB to resemble that guy, and seriously think he can win me a lot of games. He's 25, but he's no rookie. He's been playing long enough where you should see more growth. He's shown none.

What does Stafford have that you'd want so much? His mechanics are horrible. Throws the ball sidearm at times. He and both Jay Cutler have some of the most unorthodox mechanics I've ever seen from a QB. You don't have to go by me, Steve Young himself said it. I don't know why you'd seriously think this guy has so much more room to grow, just by mechanics alone. His are awful. He delivers the ball exactly the way you don't want from a QB. It's going to lead to inaccurate throws, and some bad interceptions. I'm sorry, but if a QB isn't sound mechanically in a game the so revolved on timing, it does make a significant difference in getting the ball out, and able to deliver accurate throws consistently. We've seen he can't.

Just because the guy has a strong arm, which he does, that doesn't mean he has everything you'd want from a QB. He has nothing I'd want from a QB outside his cannon arm. He can throw some darts vertically. He can make throws Weeden can't, that's basically the only difference between the two.

You're too fixated on age B00bie. Yes, we get is, Weeden is an old man, and Stafford is still young. That doesn't really mean much, when you still factor in that Stafford is the more experienced QB!

25-30 isn't that huge of a difference at an age standpoint for a QB, when you factor into playing years. It's not like its a position strongly relied on athletic ability. We're seeing it today. Guys like Brady and Manning in their late 30's still playing the position at the highest level
.

yes 25 vs 30 isn't a huge difference where

the average player, at 25, is entering their prime

and

the average player at 30 is leaving their prime, especially in the NFL

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1683775-when-does-age-catch-up-to-nfl-players


Breaking Down Production Over Time

There are a million ways to judge production, but only one gives us a one-number figure that compares across positions, seasons and even decades: Pro Football Reference's Approximate Value.

As explained in the series of posts that link takes you to, AV is one back-of-the-napkin number for a player's total production over a season, adjusted by their share of their team's production. These numbers aren't super precise, just a good rough guess of how productive and valuable a player was in any given season.

For each of the position groups, we can break down average AV for rookies, second-year players, third-year players and so on, giving us a picture of how players at certain positions tend to develop and decline.

Again, let's limit the sample player-seasons to 1978 and after, assuring apples-to-apples season lengths and similar offensive rules. The sets will be limited to players-seasons with at least 14 starts (and qualifying levels of attempts, the ones PFR uses for their rate stat minimums).

For some of the positions with the most variance, I've done the same analysis but with age, as well as years of NFL experience.



Quarterbacks

The quarterback is the most important, most protected position on the field, and it shows. The average starting quarterback plays about two seasons more than the average player at any other position.

Let's look at how quarterbacks develop and decline:


NFL_career_spans_original.png


This dramatically shows the late start and slow development of quarterbacks. See how there are zero 22-year-old quarterbacks who've started 14 NFL games since 1978? From 23 to 24, 24 to 25 and 25 to 26, there was a massive leap in understanding with each generation.

At age 25, quarterbacks hit a long plateau; the number of them who start 14-plus games from age 25 to 30 is almost unchanged. The curve stays quite flat on the back end; quarterbacks good enough to be perennial starters have little trouble staying employed.


Is their performance that consistent? Let's check out their average Approximate Values:


NFL_quarterbacks_experience_1_original.png



There are a few very interesting things going on here. First, an across-the-board jump from year one to year two; quarterbacks who start both their rookie and sophomore seasons put up a significantly higher peak, average and low AV in their second season.

That low value continues to jump up and down around the number five for most of the rest of the chart; the weird dip in year five is due to an outlier, Ron Jaworski's 1978. He started every game, but produced an AV of only one; the next-lowest value for a fifth-year starter was four.

Peak AV climbs very steadily from year three to year eight; the best quarterbacks get steadily better, even as the average and low values stay flat.

At year 10, there's a significant drop-off in peak AV, then a steady decline to year 15. The average, however, begins to trend upward as the poorer starters stop playing. The elites aren't producing like elites anymore, but they're still very good and make up the majority of quarterbacks with careers that long.

At year 16, it dwindles down to just a handful of quarterbacks, so the peak drops sharply and the floor rises too. The last data point is just Favre being Favre.


What if we look at the same values, but broken down by age? Is there a magic age when quarterbacks get worse?

NFL_quarterbacks_by_year_original.png


This chart is a lot more volatile.

The eye is drawn to the big dip in peak AV at age 29; this appears to just be a weird coincidence and not part of a larger trend (it's surrounded by very high AV values). Look at the jump from age 36 to age 37, though: High, average and low AV all take a big jump up—and then a huge dip. By 40, everyone but Favre is gone.


................


Conclusion

There's no "age of doom" or "season of doom" for NFL players.

From one position to another, there are wildly different career development and production profiles. Even then, there are exceptions to every rule. One or two players at each position have broken all the rules and played at a high level into and beyond the high teens.

Across the board, though, we see that those players good enough to start for five years tend to play about 10 years, and even the best and hardiest lose an obvious step or two after 12 years.

Keep those facts in mind if you're a diehard fan in the market for a new jersey—or an NFL team with a key veteran going into a contract year.



Weeden wouldn't start for the the majority of teams in the NFL for one season, let alone 5. Stafford on the other hand would and has started 59 of the last 60 games he's played. According to the data trends Stafford is one of the players that should be in the league for 10 years or longer and will probably start the majority of the time.

Historically QB's start their trend up once they are 25.

and

Historically QB's start their down trend between the ages of 29-31.

People want to shit on Stafford like he sucks but the last time the Lions were healthy as a team (2011) Stafford put up 5000yds, 41 td's and threw only 16 int's on a 63% completion rate....as 23 yr old....coming off a shoulder surgery that limited him to 3 games the season before.He also owns the best 50 game start to a carrer by any QB..This is the same kid who came out on the field his rookie year with a seperated shoulder and beat the Browns on the last drive of the game...I'm fully convinced some of you are still butt hurt by that and will never be able to let it go.
 
Why isn't he getting better though? The idea is to grow, and he's regressed. You are going under a false assumption that he'll out grow his gun slinging ways, but that's what the Jay Cutler fans used to say too. Fast forward 6 years, and he's still doing the same stupid shit.

You're expecting Stafford to do something he's never done in his career, and that's play with his head. Recognize coverages, look off safeties, understand when to throw it away. Look to take advantage of mismatches in his favor. Things the good QB's do. Stafford often plays that backyard style of football.

There's a clear difference between Brett Favre, and players like Stafford, Cutler, and some to degree Romo that try to mimic him.

Favre played with that rare Braveheart complex where nothing ever really phased him, and that energy would transpire to the entire team. Not to mention Favre was blessed with one of the rare golden arm's the game has ever seen, and could make throws no other QB could make. Favre wasn't a complete dummy, I actually think he was a very intelligent football player. He just played wild, it was his personality. He couldn't hold back, he didn't do that one the field, and he never did it the way he played. He'd be throwing for wins, instead and managing the game for wins. That's just how he was.

As blessed, and as tough as Favre was mentally and physically, that style of play still held back his legacy, and potential to maybe have been the game's best we've ever seen.

The way Stafford plays is junk. It's wild, risky, and frankly, he's not good enough to pull it off like Favre. I don't think he'll ever change. It's who he is. It's asking someone to be who he's not, and this is who Stafford is. He's a chucker. He flings the ball around the field. Sometimes he has an idea of where its going, other times he doesn't, but still says "what the hell". It's too 50/50 to ever seriously have something like that as QB, and really expect to go anywhere.

There's a reason why it doesn't work. Defenses are smart, and great at learning how to "bait" these guys into these horrific throws too. I don't like a QB that can't be a leader on the field. There's more to be a good QB than just having a a great arm. That's why its hard finding great ones, because its hard to know how a guy thinks upstairs.

Favre was the rare exception, and every other QB that's played the game at a high level has had to understand ball management, and when to live for another down.


Cutler was having a career year before the injury.

Stafford's progress has somewhat stagnated statistically, varying only slightly from year to year. He needs to take his career to the next level, and he'll get that chance with most likely a new coach/coordinator.

Favre and Stafford have pretty similar age 25 seasons, VERY similar.
 

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