Josh Gordon discussion

[godfather]

Come on B00bie, I know you don't seriously think Stafford is, or ever will be in the category of a Favre. He's not mentally tough enough, not even close. One thing that allowed Favre to play the way he did, and make a HOF career out of it, he was relentless. He didn't get baffled, confused, or rattled, ever. Half the time as bad as Favre would play, he'd come back firing at all cylinders better than ever before.

Also, as good of an arm Stafford has, its not Brett Favre's. Hell, even Favre in his 40s had a better arm than over half the QB's in the league.

He could make impossible throws, that literally seemed impossible to make. All that said, as great as Favre was, his cowboy slinging play still held him back tremendously. If he had even a little bit of discipline in his game say like a Brady or Manning, he might be seen as the greatest of all-time. All QB's can make bad decisions, or have throws they'd like to take back. You know the saying that a certain basketball player has never taken a shot that they didn't like? Guys like Favre have never made a throw they didn't like. You sometimes got to take the bad with the good, and Favre was just a rare exception.

Cutler's backup has been BETTER! And I think McCown stinks. This is who Stafford is, he's not going to change. He'd a wild gunslinger that will make a lot of good plays, but make too many bad ones to ever have a consistent winning team.

The Lions season perfectly illustrates what Stafford is. They're up and down, and all over the place, because that's how their QB plays. I don't want that on my team. I don't know about some of you. I want to win a super bowl one day. I don't want to just be a playoff team. No, I want to win it all. I'm tired of watching this crappy product after all these years, and to have a very low standard that winning 10 games on a particular season, and getting knocked out in the first round would be the peak of my expectations going forward.

I want to win a title. I want a QB that can do that. Call me greedy, I don't care. I don't see a guy like Stafford ever winning a super bowl in his career. So no, I don't want him. Not for Gordon, not for anything. The Lions can keep him, and continue to suck it up like they've done the last 40 years.

 

[godfather]

KB, Brandon Weeden sucks. I get it. But most of those guys have taken a physical beating throughout their career, and that's why many of them don't last as long. It has nothing to do with not literally being able to play at a very high level, IF HEALTHY. But that's a big if for many. Weeden has not been through the physical abuse those guys have endured over a 10 year span. He just sucks! That's why he's been bad, not because of his age.

His age vs Stafford's is meaningless. Because one guy is more experienced than the other. Age is just a number. Is anyone seriously going to say 30 is sooo much different from 25? Brandon Weeden himself isn't young, but experience wise he basically has nothing!

If he were any good, I think he could have carved out a nice 8-10 year career for himself.

 

[AZ_]

Meh, I'm not in any position to question Stafford's mental toughness. Neither are you.

As of right now, he is what he is. A top 3 arm whose production is marred by trusting it too much. His career could either go to the next level or it can level off where he's at right now.

Personally, I've watched Favre get confused and baffled throughout his career. He threw picks for the same reason Stafford did, and he threw them often. I don't think the two guys are exactly alike or anything, but I'd argue that Stafford has a stronger arm while Favre had a better God-given aptitude for the game and opposing defenses.

Stafford needs to be matched up with the right coach, a veteran guy like Turner who can bring his talent to the next level. Much like Favre did with Holmgren, it will do wonders for his career.

Between Chud and Turner, two guys who've had a ton of success shaping QB careers, I'd be willing to listen on Stafford depending on the price.

 

[polska2211]

Meh, I'm not in any position to question Stafford's mental toughness. Neither are you.

As of right now, he is what he is. A top 3 arm whose production is marred by trusting it too much. His career could either go to the next level or it can level off where he's at right now.

Personally, I've watched Favre get confused and baffled throughout his career. He threw picks for the same reason Stafford did, and he threw them often. I don't think the two guys are exactly alike or anything, but I'd argue that Stafford has a stronger arm while Favre had a better God-given aptitude for the game and opposing defenses.

Stafford needs to be matched up with the right coach, a veteran guy like Turner who can bring his talent to the next level. Much like Favre did with Holmgren, it will do wonders for his career.

Between Chud and Turner, two guys who've had a ton of success shaping QB careers, I'd be willing to listen on Stafford depending on the price.

FWIW, I would offer at least our 'first' first rounder for stafford, plus one or two futures.

 

[Ohio]

In the Hall of Fame for his record back-to-back 200 yard receiving games

 

[polska2211]

whats the deal with the az cardinals gloves?

 

[Ohio]

whats the deal with the az cardinals gloves?

That was for another record-setting thing done by a Cardinals player. It was in the same glass case as the Gordon one, but facing a different side.

 

[godfather]

Meh, I'm not in any position to question Stafford's mental toughness. Neither are you.

As of right now, he is what he is. A top 3 arm whose production is marred by trusting it too much. His career could either go to the next level or it can level off where he's at right now.

Personally, I've watched Favre get confused and baffled throughout his career. He threw picks for the same reason Stafford did, and he threw them often. I don't think the two guys are exactly alike or anything, but I'd argue that Stafford has a stronger arm while Favre had a better God-given aptitude for the game and opposing defenses.

Stafford needs to be matched up with the right coach, a veteran guy like Turner who can bring his talent to the next level. Much like Favre did with Holmgren, it will do wonders for his career.


Between Chud and Turner, two guys who've had a ton of success shaping QB careers, I'd be willing to listen on Stafford depending on the price.

Favre might be the mentally toughest athlete we've ever seen. That's not necessarily a knock. That's like when people say LB isn't as competitive as Jordan. Maybe he's competitive, but who is more competitive than Jordan? It's human nature for most people when they're struggling, and throwing picks to doubt themselves. I've never seen a player like Favre that literally didn't care, and would come back so much stronger, even on the next possession, when things were looking bad.

Stafford's arm strength may or may not be better. I wasn't arguing arm strength, I'm arguing better arm period. As in accuracy, and the type of throws he could make. I've seen Favre go off his back foot, fling it 40 yards, in the drop of a bucket between two guys, and with literally only inches of room to fit the ball into. That's like Wild Bill type of legendary shots he could fling. Stafford can't do things like that. I've never seen another QB able to make throws like that.

I don't know pure arm strength wise if he had the best ever, as in terms of velocity and how far he can throw it. I've always thought those were overrated traits if you don't factor in accuracy. I'm just saying there's not a single throw, regardless of coverage, whose covered, etc, that Favre has shown the ability to not make while playing in his career. That is a very rare trait. I've never seen any QB's, even all-time greats, and one's that I think are better like Manning, Brady, Elway, and Montana can make like Favre could.

Yeah, Favre definitely played like an idiot. I think he personally cost his team at least two trips to the Super Bowl. That's why I'm pointing out, even as great as Favre was, he'd self-destruct a lot and cost his team HUGE games. I'm not praising Favre. I'm not some huge closet fan of his. I loved how he played the game fearless, he was always worth watching play. But he's one of the few great players I'd literally scratch my head, and say to myself "what is he thinking" on a repeated occasion.

I'd rather have an Alex Smith than a Stafford. And I also agree, strictly game managers aren't going to always be the ticket either. But when you enter the post season, every possession means something! One bad turnover can be the difference between going home, or advancing. I could never put money on guys like Stafford, Cutler, and even Brett Favre, that act so careless with the ball, in huge moments throughout an important game.

Those guys you end up dying with more so than living with. You can't trust them. Stafford clearly is not as good as Favre. Let's say he turns out to be one of the top-5 in the league. I don't think he ever will, but let's say he does. He's still going to be what he is, a real wildcard. It's hard to put trust in them, and expect a guy like him to go out there and win against the top 3 to 4 teams to win it all, without making a critical mistake that costs you a game.

Which is reason enough why I'd never want him. I don't care if he has a new coordinator, one that works on some of his sloppy mechanics. Helps fix some of the issues in his game. That's all fair and worth noting. You can't change what is in a guy's head. No coaching can. I don't think Stafford can ever be trusted to make smart, and winning plays you need to go all the way.

 

[AZ_]

The throws at :32, :55, 2:20 and 3:20 are right in line with the "back foot with amazing placement" type you're looking for. His arm allows him to do some incredible things, get him with experienced coaches and a consistent system, and you can take him further.

[video=youtube;mW6brmmxzqo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW6brmmxzqo[/video]

 

[godfather]

The throws at :32, :55, 2:20 and 3:20 are right in line with the "back foot with amazing placement" type you're looking for. His arm allows him to do some incredible things, get him with experienced coaches and a consistent system, and you can take him further.

[video=youtube;mW6brmmxzqo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW6brmmxzqo[/video]

I wasn't questioning his arm. But let's be real, he's not Brett Favre. Half of his shit wasn't available in the now youtube era when Favre plaed. And Favre did this at 40, and honestly, its better than anything you showed me in that Stafford video. I don't want to sidetrack the argument. Stafford can throw, never did I suggest he couldn't. I don't want just a throwing QB. Steve Young didn't have the most blessed arm in the world. Joe Montana couldn't throw the ball like a Tom Brady. Hell, Jamarcus Russell could throw the ball 70 yards, that's why we was drafted number 1.

Arm strength means nothing, if you don't have mental aspect of the game like reading coverages, and making smart football plays with the ball. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning aren't widely seen as the greatest of our generation because how they throw the ball. They're the greatest because they know how to play the game, and do so at an entire aspect of what is required from the position. They think, they read, and make the throws.

[video=youtube;BhWP_0l2gA4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhWP_0l2gA4[/video]

 

[KB]

KB, Brandon Weeden sucks. I get it. But most of those guys have taken a physical beating throughout their career, and that's why many of them don't last as long. It has nothing to do with not literally being able to play at a very high level, IF HEALTHY. But that's a big if for many. Weeden has not been through the physical abuse those guys have endured over a 10 year span. He just sucks! That's why he's been bad, not because of his age.

His age vs Stafford's is meaningless. Because one guy is more experienced than the other. Age is just a number. Is anyone seriously going to say 30 is sooo much different from 25? Brandon Weeden himself isn't young, but experience wise he basically has nothing!

If he were any good, I think he could have carved out a nice 8-10 year career for himself.

Again

25/26 is histroically the age at which a QB jumps to the next level if he's going to there. Stafford has already had one crazy season when he was 23

29-31 is when a QB typically starts to fall off

The 30 year old has often plateaued and reached his peak, usually have no where to go but down at that point, some players can perform consistently at the age or older but most do not.


So yes, there is a huge difference between 25 year old and 30 year old player

The whole Weeden thing is like trying to talk yourself into wanting Chris Wienke at QB becuase he hasn't gotten hit as much as a guy who is 25 years old since the 25 year old was in the league longer....

I can recall 3 QB's that have been rookies in the NFL at around age 28 to 29 and turned out half way decent or better. Kurt Warner, Warren Moon and Doug Flutie...thats about it...


Lets be real, you're talking Farve, Manning, Brady

Do you realize none of those guys starting to put everything together until they were 25, 26, 27....in Mannings case he was 26

Farve didn't have a winning season as a starter until he was 26, his 4th year as a starting QB ( at 30 Farve through more INT's than TD's that year)

before he turned 26 Manning played on 2 winning Colts teams. Since he turned 27 and put everything together he has never been the starting QB of a team with an overall losing record

Brady wasn't given credence as a legit QB until he was 25, his 2nd year starting....

All those guys you've been naming didn't hit their strides until they were 25-26 years old...this is why there is a huge difference in a player who is 25 compared to one who is 30

So we should probably stop talking about QB's and talk about Gordon at this point...I'd say for the right package of picks or a QB like Stafford you'd have to consider trading him with his status in the leagues substance abuse policy taken into account.

 

[bob2the2nd]

yes 25 vs 30 isn't a huge difference where

the average player, at 25, is entering their prime

and

the average player at 30 is leaving their prime, especially in the NFL

stafford has been playing at a high level of football (college and above) for the last 8 years, including 5 with the lions. bradon weeden has been doing it for 4 years total. its great and all you want to make up all this bullshit about why stafford is really good and weeden sucks. but if you want to go by sure playing time and potential its actually all in weedens favor.

to put it another year. brandon weeden coming into this year had played as much post HS season football, as stafford had entering the NFL, 5 years ago. stafford should be running laps around weeden, not getting compared to him.

 

[godfather]

Again

25/26 is histroically the age at which a QB jumps to the next level if he's going to there. Stafford has already had one crazy season when he was 23

29-31 is when a QB typically starts to fall off

The 30 year old has often plateaued and reached his peak, usually have no where to go but down at that point, some players can perform consistently at the age or older but most do not.


So yes, there is a huge difference between 25 year old and 30 year old player

The whole Weeden thing is like trying to talk yourself into wanting Chris Wienke at QB becuase he hasn't gotten hit as much as a guy who is 25 years old since the 25 year old was in the league longer....

I can recall 3 QB's that have been rookies in the NFL at around age 28 to 29 and turned out half way decent or better. Kurt Warner, Warren Moon and Doug Flutie...thats about it...


Lets be real, you're talking Farve, Manning, Brady

Do you realize none of those guys starting to put everything together until they were 25, 26, 27....in Mannings case he was 26

Farve didn't have a winning season as a starter until he was 26, his 4th year as a starting QB ( at 30 Farve through more INT's than TD's that year)

before he turned 26 Manning played on 2 winning Colts teams. Since he turned 27 and put everything together he has never been the starting QB of a team with an overall losing record

Brady wasn't given credence as a legit QB until he was 25, his 2nd year starting....

All those guys you've been naming didn't hit their strides until they were 25-26 years old...this is why there is a huge difference in a player who is 25 compared to one who is 30

Why his second? Did he not win a SB in his first stint as a starter? I don't care if he was a game manager, or not, he lead his team to the game winning drive, that young, to win a SB. That's remarkable for any QB to do, regardless.

And yes, age is a difference, but you're not factoring in EXPERIENCE! That's the only clear reason its different. There's a difference between experience, and age. Again, Brandon Weeden might be 30 years old, but he's not the same 30 year old as other QB's that have been around much longer.

I don't know why you're giving me stats, and different aged QB's, when you're not factoring into playing experience at all. This isn't an argument about Weeden's age, just his ability. You're making it sound like he's bad, because he's 30. He's just bad, period! It doesn't matter if he's 25, or 30. He stinks.

No, that's not it. Roger Staubach didn't play until he was 28. Went on to win 2 super bowls and made it into the hall of fame. He's better than all those QB's you've listed.

You're listing a number like it means something. Most of them didn't hit their "strides" until their third or fourth year in the NFL. It had nothing to do with age, but gaming experience, and developing as a QB at a mental aspect, as much physically. You do know playing QB in the NFL is more mental, than physical right? It's the mentally toughest position in all of sports.

Weeden hasn't been playing QB forever. Look, I know he sucks. This has nothing to do with him. But for b00bie's point. He's saying at least Stafford is 25, and Weeden is just 30. That doesn't mean anything when one guy has more NFL experience, heck more consistent QB experience, than the other.

Stafford is 25, I don't care how old he is. I never said he had to be as good as Tom Brady or Peyton Manning at 25. Andrew Luck is still a very young guy, and no way do I think he's one of the elite yet either. That doesn't mean I'm not encouraged by his growth, and see a high ceiling.

I don't with Stafford. What is his upside outside just being a very good chucker at times? He has a great arm, yeah, I'm happy. Why does that mean he's going to be a great QB. Is he growing? Is he learning from his past mistakes. Does he make smart plays? Have we've seen any proof he's going to get much better? Even B00bie at least acknowledges its kinda hearsay if he does, or doesn't. He's hoping that coaching can make a bigger difference. I can see his point to a degree, but still, you can't change whats in a guy's head. I don't care if Stafford gets better. I know even a better Stafford will never be good enough to be a winning Super Bowl QB. Because he'll never stay away from the plays he shouldn't make.

 

[godfather]

Also, you can easily make the argument that Tom Brady post 30 years of age has been a much better QB than he was in his 20s, when he was winning Super Bowl's. This is coming off a torn ACL! His numbers across the board have been better. Kinda proves if you can stay healthy, and not take a huge beating physically, you can easily still remain great, if not better than ever. Did Peyton Manning not just break the TD record at 37?

If a QB can stay healthy (in years past most couldn't, because of the beating they'd take), you can still play in this game into your late 30's at a high level. Today you can't even touch a QB. Wouldn't be surprised to see guys playing into their 40's at a high level. It's all about health. In a violent sport most don't hold up, and that's usually why their careers start to spiral out of control. Almost every great QB you can think of, their career usually ended because of health, not because they just couldn't play anymore.

 

[KB]

Brady wasn't a starter when they won that super bowl, he hadn't won the job outright

he was the defacto starter afer Bledsoe got injured. He wasn't named the starter until the following season, in which that Pats finished 9-7 while Brady was learning how to adjust to defenses keying on his prime reads.

Roger Staubach was in the league for 5 years before he was named the starter at the age of 31 and again there are some outliers, anamolies for in regard to age. and before that Craig Morton was starting over him.

Again Stafford has had a season at the age of 23 where he went for 5000ys 41 tds to 16 ints with a 63% completion %

In that season Stafford had 3 receivers with over 70 catches, he also had 6 offensive players with over 20 catches that year one of which had 48

Do you not understand that mental and phyiscal develpment typically are at a peak for an athlete around the age of 28? After that the phyiscal skills have a tendencey to degrade.