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Dion Waiters Traded

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Grade the Trade (Waiters + Kirk/Amundsen + 2nd rd pick for Smith, Shumpert, and 1st rd pick)

  • A+

    Votes: 18 7.1%

  • A

    Votes: 68 26.7%

  • B

    Votes: 106 41.6%

  • C

    Votes: 44 17.3%

  • D

    Votes: 10 3.9%

  • F

    Votes: 9 3.5%
  • Total voters
    255
  • Poll closed .
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Saor said:
By Mary Schmitt Boyer, The Plain Dealer
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Yeah, it's time for him to go. He said I way too often, def not a team player.......:tongue:

On another note, I was thinking today, maybe too much. Does the situation remind anyone else of how Brown dealt with JJ? Kinda like he picks one guy as an example player, hoping it sinks it for everyone because of that one player?
 
LoooNeY said:
I've just stopped defending this guy. I used to be one of most active supporters but at this point it's like people expectations are forever changing and they don't know how to take anything into context. I don't know if people don't like Dion because of the Team Kyrie vs Dion bullshit or just because he was drafted ahead of someone else they'd rather have on the team but it's something. The Dion experiment in Cleveland is just about over (all signs point to such) and we haven't even tested anything out. Kyrie and Dion have played so few minutes together throughout Dion's tenure in Cleveland that's it's asinine to say these guys can't coexist. They never got a chance!

I'm not saying Dion is a flawless and perfect player. Far from it in fact. Does he struggle at times defensively? Yes. Do his emotions sometimes get the better of him during games? Yes. Is his shot selection a problem? Yes. But he's a young player. The areas he struggling in are typical for players his age. He'll get better over time with more playing time and good coaching. However this is besides the point, just for comparisons take let's examine Dion's current season along with some other SGs in their 2nd year:

He's inexplicably playing just 28 mpg and averaging 14, 3, and 3 with 1 spg on 41.6/38/68 splits.

Bradley Beal is playing 33 mpg (which is expected for a core piece and developing young guard) and averaging 17,4, and 4 with 1 spg on 40.8/41/80 splits.

James Harden in his 2nd year, on a much more talented team than ours, played 26 mpg and averaged 12, 3, and 2 wih 1 spg on 43.6/35/84 splits.

Klay Thompson is his 2nd year played 36 mpg and averaged 17, 4, and 2 with 1 spg on 42/40/84 splits.

His stats and splits are on par with other "stars/budding stars" as labeled by many people today yet he's the only one whom people label a chucker. Why does he have such a bad rep? I honestly couldn't answer that. But for Dion to receive as much criticism as he has from national pundits and Cleveland fans alike is hysterical. Moreover, for him to play as he has been while dealing with all the off-the-court shit he's gone through is unbelievable. He's been Mike Brown's whipping boy all year, he's been unfairly targeted by national media, and his character has been defaced on multiple occasions.

I'm eagerly awaiting a change of scenery for Dion Waiters. He's basically been run out of town. He's been made the scapegoat for the majority of the season. He'll flourish in a new environment though and then we'll see what's really wrong with this team.
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I agree with the majority of the points you made, particularly regarding the baffling unwillingness the team has to give the Kyrie/Dion pairing a fair shake.

But the bolded bit about people labeling him a chucker isn't quite as misguided as you make it seem. Though listing the basic stats with the shooting splits usually give a pretty fair idea of what the player is doing, it does ignore the types of attempts a guy is taking. When the latter is factored in, it makes it a bit easier to see why Dion gets more of a chucker rep than those guys did (sans Beal); that is, Dion does look to be a bit more inefficient than all of those guys (once again sans Beal - I have no idea why the media decided to like him and paint him in such a more positive light when he really is just as inefficient as Dion).

Not Chuckers:

2nd Year Klay - 14.8 FGA/36, 6.9 3PA/36, .533 TS%, 50.9 eFG%

2nd Year Harden - 11.2 FGA/36, 5.3 3PA/36, .598 TS%, 51.8 eFG%

Sorta Chucker-ish:

Beal - 17.5 FGA/36, 5.3 3PA/36, .495 TS%, 47.0 eFG%

Dion - 16.4 FGA/36, 4.0 3PA/36, .494 TS%, 46.2 eFG%

Having said that, I still really do hope that Kyrie and Dion are forced to try to make this work (unless Dion really is that much of a problem in the locker room).
 
The thing killing Dion's advanced shooting numbers is his FT%. He really needs to get that up to around 80%, and he'd look a lot more efficient.
 
Douglar posted something about the brick layers index in this thread, and Dion ranked high. That's perhaps where it came from.

But most of us know his playing situation is not ideal so I'd like to see his numbers after being put in a more consistent role/system/rotation.

I think George Karl would have him in go mode, and we'd see a much more efficient and game ready player. Just speculating though.
 
Rich said:
The thing killing Dion's advanced shooting numbers is his FT%. He really needs to get that up to around 80%, and he'd look a lot more efficient.
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same with actually being able to finish.

the 3 most valuable aspects of a players (and teams) offensive efficiency are the 3pt shot, free throw, and shots at the rim. being awful at 2/3 is an absolute efficiency killer.
 
Dion needs to be starting. He needs to get big minutes. He needs to learn from his mistakes. That's what will help him grow, so please MB get this man some minutes, even if he is struggling or playing bad.
 
Some interesting stats from KI4MVP...

KI4MVP said:
Myth 1 - Kyrie and Dion only play together 5 minutes/game

Reality: Kyrie and Dion have played 740 minutes together (an average of 18 minutes/game in the 40 games they've both played). Dion actually plays significantly more minutes with Kyrie than without him.

Myth 2 - Dion passes to Kyrie more than Kyrie passes to Dion.

Reality: While they are on the court together, 31% of Kyrie's assists are to Dion while just 18% of Dion's assists are to Kyrie. Kyrie also has nearly 2x the assist (111 to 60), which he should because he is the better ball handler and passer. Despite Dion having the ball for fewer possessions, they have an equal number of turnovers while they are on the court together because 11.3% of Dion's possessions end in turnovers, 8.6% of Kyrie's end in turnovers.
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From a chat on NBA Insiders:

Hey Bill
Regarding the Cavs, is it a case of a too cocky “I can be the best SG” Dion against an “I’m Uncle Drew” Kyrie?
My feeling is Irving shoots for Hollywood first chance he gets, whether by trade or waiting until a free agent, but I also can’t see Dion being kept on that roster.







  • [h=4]<cite class="fn" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">Bill Ingram</cite>[/h]I wasn’t a fan of Waiters when they drafted him and that hasn’t changed. Many nights he looks like MVP of the D-League. I don’t think Kyrie is itching to leave, but the Cavs had better start making smart moves and clean up the culture of that team or he will, indeed, leave them to watch another player become a champion somewhere else.




Read more at http://www.basketballinsiders.com/chat/nba-chat-with-bill-ingram-2414/#xjzsJ7jOrId1uE4H.99
 
LoooNeY said:
I don't know if people don't like Dion because of the Team Kyrie vs Dion bullshit or just because he was drafted ahead of someone else they'd rather have on the team but it's something....Does he struggle at times defensively? Yes. Do his emotions sometimes get the better of him during games? Yes.
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It's the maturity/emotional/attitude stuff that bothers me, and I'll admit to being "biased" against Dion because of that. Young players generally have issues with refining their game, improving their shooting, shot selection, defense, and other skills. Seeing young players, including Dion, Beal, Harden, and Thompson go through that growing process doesn't bother me. But a lack of mental/emotional discipline is something that can be a long-term problem for some guys, affecting their ability to grow and learn from their mistakes, and can have more of a ripple effect on other players. Getting thrown out of practice is not cool, at all, and to me symptomatic of serious maturity issues.
 
He's getting fewer minutes than Bennett...I think anyone has a right to be pissed in that situation.
 
There are bench players on every NBA roster who put up a few good games surrounded by so-so/bad ones. To say that Dion can be a star based on his flashing moments is very dangerous thinking.

If he was more mature as a person, he'd be making the most of his PT. You can say he has had inconsistent minutes, but notice how many times he loses touch of the overall game when either his shot isn't falling or he isn't getting calls from the refs.

If he was consistently showing effort on the court, even Brown would be giving him the important minutes. Like it or not, Dion has put himself into this mess as much as anyone else.
 
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The Human Q-Tip said:
It's the maturity/emotional/attitude stuff that bothers me, and I'll admit to being "biased" against Dion because of that. Young players generally have issues with refining their game, improving their shooting, shot selection, defense, and other skills. Seeing young players, including Dion, Beal, Harden, and Thompson go through that growing process doesn't bother me. But a lack of mental/emotional discipline is something that can be a long-term problem for some guys, affecting their ability to grow and learn from their mistakes, and can have more of a ripple effect on other players. Getting thrown out of practice is not cool, at all, and to me symptomatic of serious maturity issues.
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We'll see what happens here as Dion could be a part of a package that lands a "take over the game in someway" type of player which I believe is exactly what Kyrie needs. Now, Kyrie is immensely talented but I get a little nervous placing the superstar label on ultra talented offensive PG's that don't show up on the other side of the court. I am much more comfortable attaching that label to PG's like Chris Paul and Derrick Rose who bring it on both ends. Now, please don't take that the wrong way as I think that we can still win in this league with Kyrie as our PG. What we need is a legitimate star at one of the 4 other positions. It has to be the type of personality that could reign in Kyrie, preferably a veteran player that has walked the walk.

Dion is very talented and I do think that if we trade him and he gets the shot to be the man, that he will thrive as he becomes more and more mature. I think it's a recipe for us yet again seeing a player leave here and thrive. He comes from a winning program at Syracuse and he played the 6th man role. He was a very consistent performer and he hit a lot of big shots. Jim Boeheim is quoted as saying that Dion is one of the most talented players that he has ever coached. I am just having a tough time truly evaluating our young prospects at this point because there is just no semblance of a coherent offense and not a single one of these guys has shown much growth but what Dion has done is step up his defensive effort and efficacy. That is what Mike Brown was brought in to do and I feel that Waiters has stepped up to the challenge and the fact that the team has not improved in this regard much overall makes it even more impressive to me. I believe that the right coach could really jettison both he and Kyrie offensively. They both already show tremendous offensive talent. Seems like some maturity and a solid coach would open the flood gates. Now, when you are talking about a personality issue, I think you have to look to see if the guy is a cancer and from what I read, I don't believe that he is. I think this is a frustration from being used to winning, having the expectation that this season would be different, and just not having the right guy to lead this effort and get everybody on the same page.

Problems with Kyrie or just a lack of synergy? Fuck that, get it together and I think that they will. If there is no major impact trade in the next few weeks, I think they just need to look at each other and get on the same page. Kyrie is going to have to just swallow his pride a little bit and figure out what it's going to take to win. We have added Luol Deng who should have instantly vaulted our defense. This is a Mike Brown type of guy but he's not going to be able to reign these guys in right away and he's more reserved anyway. I just keep thinking how great it would be to get a vocal leader on this team that can be option number 1, somebody that Kyrie would have no choice but to defer to. It would also be great to have one or two grizzled veterans that are proven winners at the trail end of their careers to play a few minutes and guide our young guys. A role like Jason Kidd played for the Knicks last season. I just don't think this team, as currently constructed is disciplined enough and they are clearly not convinced by the direction that Mike is going.
 
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I certainly agree that Kyries' maturity/lack of effects the entire roster. His problem is simply lack of experience and not much exposure to adversity on the court.
 
kidduck said:
There are bench players on every NBA roster who put up a few good games surrounded by so-so/bad ones. To say that Dion can be a star based on his flashing moments is very dangerous thinking.

If he was more mature as a person, he'd be making the most of his PT. You can say he has had inconsistent minutes, but notice how many times he loses touch of the overall game when either his shot isn't falling or he isn't getting calls from the refs.

If he was consistently showing effort on the court, even Brown would be giving him the important minutes. Like it or not, Dion has put himself into this mess as much as anyone else.
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He has gotten a lot better with this. You make excuses for Kyrie having a lack of exposure and experience, the same thing applies to Dion.
 
Maximus said:
Some interesting stats from KI4MVP...
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You do know that assists in not a way to measure if one guy is passing to another guy, right?

If one guy is more likely to shoot, and the other is more likely to dribble, comparing their stats on assists to each other doesn't show you who passes the ball more to whom.

And 18 minutes is not even half of a game. Instead of 40 games it's the equivalent of playing starters minutes together for 20 games. They have barely 20 games of full game experience together, sparsed across 40 games. We're essentially avoiding creating chemistry between the two.

The main stat there is that Dion plays more minutes without Kyrie than he plays with him. That's what a lot of people in here have a problem with. Dion is learning to play without Kyrie more than he's learning to play with him.
 
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