Dion Waiters Traded

[daytripper]

If a pure catch and shoot player is the best type of SG to play next to Kyrie than why is Jack starting and why was Dion even drafted? I thought it was important to have another ballhandler in the lineup to alleviate alot of that pressure off Kyrie?

 

[daytripper]

Some interesting stats from KI4MVP...

Uh oh..looks like even the nacho vendor has turned on Dion at this point.

 

[staycoolbruh]

This is what irks me the most. Did the Cavs even scout Dion? Was he a catch and shoot guy at Syracuse? No. And now that is what we want him to be? I don't even know why we drafted him if our plan was for him to catch and shoot.

"We have another guy who can create," Scott said. "We had one guy in Kyrie. That's a lot of pressure for one guy to handle. Now we have another guy who can share in that. He doesn't mind sharing it. He doesn't mind having the ball in his hand with the game on the line. He's not afraid to fail. That's the thing I love about him. He's a competitor and a tough kid."

 

[mAo_mAo]

This is what irks me the most. Did the Cavs even scout Dion? Was he a catch and shoot guy at Syracuse? No. And now that is what we want him to be? I don't even know why we drafted him if our plan was for him to catch and shoot.

I actually think that CG based his drafting of Dion and his perceived off the ball prowess on the catch and shoot stat. He probaly did not understand that Dion can do that but it is not his natural game. His game to be actually be the best player he could be is to be the alpha, to be the ball handler initiating the offense. That would work with a team like the Raptors or Philly, but not on our team where there is a player with similar style of play as him but only waaaaay better.

 

[Nathan S]

There are between 5 and 20 (twenty) times per game where he does not move from his position for at least 14 seconds. He literally stands still doing nothing if he does not have the ball.

There are two possible reasons for this:

1. Mike Brown doesn't draw up nearly enough plays to get Dion open off the ball. If this is the case then it is also understandable that Kyrie doesn't always find Dion when he gets open. It's a lot easier to find the open man when you've run that same play and thrown that same pass a hundred times before in practice.

2. Mike Brown does draw up plays to get Dion open off the ball, but Dion blatantly ignores his play calls.

Option 1 seems much more likely to me...in general, Mike Brown's play calls rarely involve more than two or three players, and those not involved in the play just look to crash the offensive boards, wait on the three point line and hope that their defender somehow forgets that they exist, or stand out near half court and act as an emergency option in case the primary play call goes awry. Dion and others are left out of the offense in this way far too often when Kyrie's on the court.

It's not Dion's fault or Kyrie's fault...it's what happens when you have one of the worst offensive coaches in the league and you practice offense less than any other team in the league.

EDIT: I should say, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to spend a lot of time on defense in practice. God knows we need to get our shit together on that end of the floor. But we need to understand that if we choose to focus on defense in practice, our offense will suffer as a result.

 

[Maximus]

Uh oh..looks like even the nacho vendor has turned on Dion at this point.

I know...i was his biggest fan too. He's lost me. He's too thin skinned and can't accept constructive criticism at all. Someday he may be able to, but i dont want to wait until then. The altercations, getting kicked out of practice, films, quitting, pouting, "AYYYYEEE!!!", "AND ONNNNEE!!!!". I'm done with it all. He respects no one, no idea why he expects it back. From the coaches to his teammates to the refs...it's everyone else's fault. He has a ton of talent, but he's uncoachable at this point and killing any chance of developing chemistry.

It's baffling to me that those remaining in the Dion camp continue to call for more minutes and for him to start when you keep hearing about him getting kicked out of practices, meetings, having altercations with teammates, etc. Are we supposed to reward his pouting and being a malcontent?
Same thing in game threads...everyone giggles when he yells "AND ONE!" and "AYYYYYEEEE!!!!". You all bitch because he doesn't get calls. Guess why he doesn't get calls - the refs hate him. He's disrespectful.

Dion is the problem, it's not everyone ganging up on Dion.

 

[Jack Brickman]

I actually think that CG based his drafting of Dion and his perceived off the ball prowess on the catch and shoot stat. He probaly did not understand that Dion can do that but it is not his natural game. His game to be actually be the best player he could be is to be the alpha, to be the ball handler initiating the offense. That would work with a team like the Raptors or Philly, but not on our team where there is a player with similar style of play as him but only waaaaay better.

Totally disagree with this, and to be honest it's just false. The team flat out stated that the main reason they drafted Dion was to have another guy who could get to the rack and create shots for others. They were under no delusions that he was some amazing off-the-ball player, although I do think they felt he could be taught to move better off the ball over time.

 

[Soar]

From The Bullshit Whisperer's chat:

FOX Sports Ohio: I don't think Dion is the problem. I fault the basketball staff for not making those two work. That's why they drafted them and hired the coach. Make them work. It's not a failure on Dion's part or Kyrie's part. That falls on the GM and coach.

 

[Zen]

There are two possible reasons for this:

1. Mike Brown doesn't draw up nearly enough plays to get Dion open off the ball. If this is the case then it is also understandable that Kyrie doesn't always find Dion when he gets open. It's a lot easier to find the open man when you've run that same play and thrown that same pass a hundred times before in practice.

2. Mike Brown does draw up plays to get Dion open off the ball, but Dion blatantly ignores his play calls.

Option 1 seems much more likely to me...in general, Mike Brown's play calls rarely involve more than two or three players, and those not involved in the play just look to crash the offensive boards, wait on the three point line and hope that their defender somehow forgets that they exist, or stand out near half court and act as an emergency option in case the primary play call goes awry. Dion and others are left out of the offense in this way far too often when Kyrie's on the court.

It's not Dion's fault or Kyrie's fault...it's what happens when you have one of the worst offensive coaches in the league and you practice offense less than any other team in the league.

EDIT: I should say, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to spend a lot of time on defense in practice. God knows we need to get our shit together on that end of the floor. But we need to understand that if we choose to focus on defense in practice, our offense will suffer as a result.

I guess the point of my post was that you don't need a designed play to do these things. You could have zero offense and if you have any sort of bball iq you are moving based on what the ball and spacing indicates. He simply stands completely still.

To piggyback on what max said about people still defending Dion. I think there are a lot of people that would change their tune if / when more stories come out about his behavior. Its easy to see how his highlights and fiery attitude make him a fan favorite.

If he wasn't on the Cavs and people looked at him objectively I think it would be a much different picture. He essentially acts like a Diva without the requisite skills to be able to get away with it.

 

[216]

So we should believe that Dion punched Kyrie?


the refs jobs are to make the proper calls, not to reward players they like. They're supposed to be professional, even when 22 year old players aren't, imo.

I'm not saying that everything about Dion's attitude is likable, but some of it is. He's far from the only player that "verbally flop" and he isn't even flopping, he's just yelling when he gets fouled.

I believe that Dion's attitude is a problem, but I refuse to believe that he's the problem with the Cavaliers this season. You just can't place the entire blame of this horrible season on one guy, not even Mike Brown.

 

[Los216]

This thread is loooooong

 

[Nathan S]

I guess the point of my post was that you don't need a designed play to do these things. You could have zero offense and if you have any sort of bball iq you are moving based on what the ball and spacing indicates. He simply stands completely still.

Did you consider that the actual play call may very well be for him to just stand there and act as a release valve?

Even in plays where this is not the case, I think Dion standing around is more a result of the fact that the Cavs simply don't spend much time on this sort of thing in practice as opposed to Dion being fundamentally incapable of even the most basic off-ball movement.

 

[kidduck]

I love the non-movement without the ball argument.

None of the Cavs expend even a fraction of that type energy compared to a player such as Rip Hamilton and Ray Allen.

 

[Soar]

I know...i was his biggest fan too. He's lost me. He's too thin skinned and can't accept constructive criticism at all. Someday he may be able to, but i dont want to wait until then. The altercations, getting kicked out of practice, films, quitting, pouting, "AYYYYEEE!!!", "AND ONNNNEE!!!!". I'm done with it all. He respects no one, no idea why he expects it back. From the coaches to his teammates to the refs...it's everyone else's fault. He has a ton of talent, but he's uncoachable at this point and killing any chance of developing chemistry.

It's baffling to me that those remaining in the Dion camp continue to call for more minutes and for him to start when you keep hearing about him getting kicked out of practices, meetings, having altercations with teammates, etc. Are we supposed to reward his pouting and being a malcontent?
Same thing in game threads...everyone giggles when he yells "AND ONE!" and "AYYYYYEEEE!!!!". You all bitch because he doesn't get calls. Guess why he doesn't get calls - the refs hate him. He's disrespectful.

Dion is the problem, it's not everyone ganging up on Dion.

Appreciate the information. Do you think he still has value around the league at all? I'd hate to see him go for peanuts. But all this bad press certainly isn't helping him either.

 

[Nathan S]

I love the non-movement without the ball argument.

None of the Cavs expend even a fraction of that type energy compared to a player such as Rip Hamilton and Ray Allen.

As much as it might seem like Hamilton and Allen were just running around at random and suddenly getting open, that's not actually the case. If I had to guess, I'd say upwards of 90% of Allen's 3's in the half court came off of carefully designed plays rather than just Allen expending a lot of energy. Someone with real playing/coaching experience can probably confirm this...