Dion Waiters Traded

[Cashius X]

Did you see KI4MVP's post that Maximus linked? Dion and Kyrie average 18 minutes per game together, which means that Dion plays more with Kyrie than without him. "They never play together", or "it's never been given a chance" is a myth.

18 minutes a game is enough to see if 2 guys can play together?

People know they play together. The argument is that they don't play enough together.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Max...

This kind of "cut losses" mindset is understandable, but it truly is reactionary in the grand scheme of things. Dion Waiters didnt happen to our rebuild, we made this. Its an element/by product of our rebuilding decision making....

The narrative after that draft was that Byron Scott was pushing hard for Dion Waiters, thought there were concerns raised very early on that they might not be the best pairing. But Scott was convinced he could make it work, and apparently convinced Grant of that. Well, it obviously didn't work as well as Scott thought, which is part of the reason he's no longer here. But that leaves us without the coach who thought that pairing would work.

Bottom line is that to the extent Dion doesn't fit, it's mostly CG's fault.

 

[RTrees]

Investing in these players is an investment in the person. It takes effort from both sides to come to a healthy working relationship.

We know Dion is not innocent in all that goes on, with a few f ups. And they're harmless f ups mind you, a comment here, a pouting there, nothing we can't try to work with.

Where we've f'd up is on our side and trying to meet him half way. There's really only one thing that we can do to drive Dion Waiters insane and we know what that thing is. And we're attempting to use it as a tool to make him better but it's turned into a twisted game of flexing authority and abuse of power. It may not be intentional but it seems Mike Brown knows how to take away, and really enjoys it, but as far as rewarding guys at significant times and with the significant prizes, it's not happening.

The reward system is broken, and guys minutes become a function of other guys minutes being taken away.

You can lose minutes on this team, but there's no clear way to earn them.

We've refused Dion consistent significant minutes for even one decent stretch of games, just as a reward (I assume he's done something worth rewarding this year). Just as a reward, and that will give us time to see what he looks like, maybe a reward for us too. But all we do is PLAN to reward him minutes, so when he gets in the game and makes mistakes, he's yanked and never given that reward he already earned.

We haven't rewarded him with the one thing he wants and needs most, consistent minutes. And it doesn't look like we're going to. So by all means Dion, act up. Get yourself a new home. It worked for Bynum, and he's about to play with a real team.

There's nothing here for Dion but blame, hate, scapegoating, and a coach that wants to take from the guy more often than he wants to give.

I'm not saying Dion's been a saint. But he hasn't realistically done anything harmful. This is something we should have been able to manage, and we're failing. He's not a monster. He's a person we should be trying to work with. Not a guy we should "whip into shape" with punishments and constantly taking away his most treasured thing in the world, time on the basketball court. Especially when he's already earned it.

 

[Rich]

Rhcfld is right. You can't draft a guy you know is a hot head, and then a season and a half later, give up on him BECAUSE he's a hot head. That looks terrible.

 

[Pioneer10]

It's better to cut your losses then ride them: loss aversion kills people when investing.

That being said, unless Bennett turns it around which I remain hopeful about, I'm no convinced this team sans Dion will be anything better then they are now.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

18 minutes a game is enough to see if 2 guys can play together?

People know they play together. The argument is that they don't play enough together.

We obviously disagree, because I think that's a pretty substantial amount of time for them to play together. It's probably not enough time for them to maximize how well they might work with each other if they were fundamentally a good fit, but it surely is enough time to see if the expected progress is being made. And it doesn't look to me like we're seeing a relationship that is growing better with each game, or each week, etc.. Any improvement is marginal at best, and they don't seem to get along any better now than they at the beginning of the season, or even last year.

 

[shoes22]

Rhcfld is right. You can't draft a guy you know is a hot head, and then a season and a half later, give up on him BECAUSE he's a hot head. That looks terrible.

I think the real argument for trading Dion has less to do with him being a hot head, and more because his talent and skills aren't as good as we hoped they'd be when we drafted him.

If he was scoring 20 points a night or affecting the game in other meaningful ways, he could be an overemotional diva all he wants for all I care. Kobe Bryant has similar personality traits...so does Demarcus Cousins, but nobody cares, because they're stars.

Dion's talent simply doesn't live up to his own ego, and the skills he does have don't do much to help the team. That's the reason for trading him.

 

[Triumph36]

What is the benefit. Especially to someone who wants to tank such as yourself. What does moving Dion actually do at this point of the season?

BTW, I'm all for moving just about everybody for the right price. But moving Dion for, say, Harrison Barnes, I don't get it. What are you trying to salvage this season? Why not just give it the rest of the season, at least, to see where Dion and Kyrie are?

getting one of the primary bad seeds out is the benefit. it's not about winning this season per se; more about changing the actual team environment to better foster growth and development. this team isn't as talented as many thought coming in to the season. they'll still lose plenty of games without dion, but it's about more than the win-loss column.

i mean, look at all the stuff in max's post. dion's talent level does not even come close to that entitled diva bullshit act. yes, a lot of that falls on the front office for improper judgement. but exactly how long can you wait around for him to magically have a complete reverse in attitude? are we really going to anchor a big part of the future of this team to this guy? the situation does not seem to be progressing whatsoever. the longer we wait, the worse it likely becomes.

the team is a mess and at some point we need to start fixing the issues. yes, we need a new coach. yes, we need a new gm. but neither of those are going to happen mid-season. trading one of the cancerous attitudes is the most realistic "first step" in the right/new direction.

 

[Soar]

Maybe Mike Brown can make sure he has a broom to wave at him. Seems to get Dion focused.

 

[Nathan S]

Maybe Mike Brown can make sure he has a broom to wave at him. Seems to get Dion focused.

Kinda funny how the Cavs let Dion practice pull up jumpers all summer and then we're surprised when that's the only part of his game that improved :chuckles:

 

[Dr. Claw]

We have to stop pushing the buck down, and put accountability where is needs to be. Watching Atlanta and the returns Danny is getting there is VERY frustrating for me. Across the board, in a season and a half, you see a organization that was mired in mediocrity and turmoil, put themselves now in a position where they are right where West/Myers/Jackson took Golden State after tearing down the mess Mullin and Montgomery/Smart left for them. Atlanta is stable now and ready for takeoff with the asset collecting Danny has been doing while tearing down. He got his coaching hire right, after hanging with Drew for an extra year KNOWING his team wasnt ready yet for the fresh voice. Look at the german kid, seriously... have you seen the way Bud has him developing WHILE pushing for the playoffs, AFTER losing their best player for the season? Schroeder had his bumps early but just last night he pinpointed a bounce pass that only Paul, Rubio or Nash could currently pull off and his decision making is vastly improved after spending time in the D League. What Danny and Bud has going down there, even with the ownership instability, is beautiful.

We need ALL of the talent we can get, and now we are being reactionary and getting ready to "cut losses" with the second most talented player on the team.

All because we have not established a more stable hierarchy first and foremost, but also because we did not do our just due in making sure he could/would be the best fit for the guy who showed himself to have the potential to be the best young PG, in the season before the pick was made.

I simply cant jive with the "he's lost me" narrative now being pushed to make up for our mismanagement/lack of stability/inability to foster a strong developmental atmosphere. I know you are privy to more inside knowledge, but the true root of this problem is now pretty transparent and being called for where it lies in the media.

Gilbert and Grant.

You can't fire one, but the other has to go before the Cavs go into another draft. And whoever they replace needs to put an offensive mind next to Mike Brown that will challenge him where needed.

Dion is going to be the scapegoat for this mess and should the Cavs trade him, fine... they need to get something reasonable in return.

 

[Rich]

getting one of the primary bad seeds out is the benefit. it's not about winning this season per se; more about changing the actual team environment to better foster growth and development. this team isn't as talented as many thought coming in to the season. they'll still lose plenty of games without dion, but it's about more than the win-loss column.

i mean, look at all the stuff in max's post. dion's talent level does not even come close to that entitled diva bullshit act. yes, a lot of that falls on the front office for improper judgement. but exactly how long can you wait around for him to magically have a complete reverse in attitude? are we really going to anchor a big part of the future of this team to this guy? the situation does not seem to be progressing whatsoever. the longer we wait, the worse it likely becomes.

the team is a mess and at some point we need to start fixing the issues. yes, we need a new coach. yes, we need a new gm. but neither of those are going to happen mid-season. trading one of the cancerous attitudes is the most realistic "first step" in the right/new direction.

So then it becomes worse? At this point in the season, who fucking cares? Ok, so by season's end Kyrie and Dion really hate each other, so what? You can still move Dion then.

And btw, moving Dion to make Kyrie happy is not a road I want to go down. You guys are asking to create something in Kyrie that can't be changed.

 

[Rich]

I'm not trying to say Dion shouldn't be traded. I just want it to be for the right reasons.

Trading him to make this group of lousy ass players and a lousy ass coach happy? Pass. I really don't care about their chemistry or feelings at this point. Fixing that issue, this late in the season, does nothing for the season. If that's the reason you trade him, wait till at least the offseason to see if any improvements are made.

 

[216]

Wait, where did that come from? No you shouldn't believe that, because he didn't.

you referenced "altercations" and the supposed players only meeting fight is what I thought you were talking about.

Who's placing all the blame on Dion? I don't think i've seen anyone say that. He sure is part of it though.

Dion is the problem, it's not everyone ganging up on Dion.

when you said, "Dion is the problem" I took it to mean, Dion is the only problem or the main problem.

I don't think Dion is the main problem, even if he is a big problem... but I don't think he is either lol

 

[RTrees]

Let's trade one of our most talented players because he yells for fouls?

Yelling for fouls works over a period of time. Everybody who's watched the NBA for decades knows this.

He will get his calls, but not all in his second rookie year. The sooner Brown could make him look like a starter (even just with minutes), the sooner they realize they need to watch closely with Dion.

He's going to learn the refs. And they're going to learn him too. That's how it works.

Let's trade one of our most talented players, main complaint being, because he yells for fouls.. I thought I had heard it all in Cavs forums but I think that's gotta be a new one.