Johnny Manziel: Swan Won't Return His Calls

AZ_ said:

If such a case arises, I'd almost rather see Manziel starting in hopes of opening up the running game more with the threat of a mobile QB.

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Welp, might as well shut this thread down now. It's peaked.

AZ_ said:

The only thing which could give this team a rise to mediocrity this season would be the emergence of a powerful running game.

Everything I see from Terrence West I like. The backfield duo of he and Tate, with the potential emergence of someone like Crowell could mean the Browns could pound away and play ball control behind a solid defense to win some games.

If such a case arises, I'd almost rather see Manziel starting in hopes of opening up the running game more with the threat of a mobile QB.

Neither of these guys is going to be distributing the football with any sort of higher level efficiency, IMO.

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That seems to have been the plan all along, or else the Browns would have picked Sammy Watkins.

AZ_ said:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Pettine says Manziel getting 1st team reps "all part of the plan." <a href="https://twitter.com/TonyGrossi">@TonyGrossi</a> specifically asks, did he earn them? Pettine: "no."</p>— Aditi Kinkhabwala (@AKinkhabwala) <a href="https://twitter.com/AKinkhabwala/statuses/496328520533286912">August 4, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

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Grossi asking a legit question. Bravo!

AZ_ said:

The only thing which could give this team a rise to mediocrity this season would be the emergence of a powerful running game.

Everything I see from Terrence West I like. The backfield duo of he and Tate, with the potential emergence of someone like Crowell could mean the Browns could pound away and play ball control behind a solid defense to win some games.

If such a case arises, I'd almost rather see Manziel starting in hopes of opening up the running game more with the threat of a mobile QB.

Neither of these guys is going to be distributing the football with any sort of higher level efficiency, IMO.

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Triple Option on the Lakefront!!!!!

I'm guessing that Hoyer starts pre-season game 1 and Manziel starts pre season game 2 which happens to be MNF vs RGIII and the 'Skins. I think that has been written in sharpie for quite some time. Any hints or insulations differently from the coaching staff is meant for motivation/competition.

This first team rep thing from Manziel is probably a non-story. The Browns said Manziel will get some 1st team reps and he is.

The real question is who starts pre season game 3. Whoever is the starter for that game is your week 1 starter. I believe the odds on favorite is Hoyer but you can't rule Manziel out at this point.

Jack Brickman said:

Welp, might as well shut this thread down now. It's peaked.

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Ol' Turncoat has failed to explain how Johnny's strengths mesh better with a dominant running game as opposed to Hoyer's strengths.

If Hoyer is an under center game manager with decent athleticism, a la an Alex Smith type, play action off the run works just fine off his strengths. Johnny might have a better deep ball but he isn't connecting to receivers in either the 1st or 2nd team offense.

Randolphkeys said:

Ol' Turncoat has failed to explain how Johnny's strengths mesh better with a dominant running game as opposed to Hoyer's strengths.

If Hoyer is an under center game manager with decent athleticism, a la an Alex Smith type, play action off the run works just fine off his strengths. Johnny might have a better deep ball but he isn't connecting to receivers in either the 1st or 2nd team offense.

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It's just the nature of a power run, spread offense. Mobile QB's have an advantage out of the pocket when they can fake a dive into the LOS. It freezes line-backers and safeties, allowing mobile QB's to get the edge on run/throw options. It's why guys like RGIII, Colin Kapernick, and even Brxaton Miller at Ohio State are so successful. The threat of the mobile QB can also loosen up the defense in the middle as interior lineman, middle linebackers, and safeties all need to account for the edge.

While in a standard power run game, play-action is a staple and can be very successful, we just don't see it a ton anymore. Even prototypical pocket QB's like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Drew Brees are involved in spread offenses. Kyle Shannahan will likely be more well versed in an offense suited to Manziel than Hoyer, IMO. If Manziel is even close to Hoyer coming out of camp (which he may not be) I still think Manziel probably gets a crack because there is a lot more you can do with him, and he puts more pressure on a defense with his versatility.

There's also a huge concern in our wide-receiver make-up but this is a bit deeper down the rabbit-hole. With the lack of explosiveness without Josh Gordon for likely a long time, the limited capabilities of our guys on the outside is problematic. Even if you freeze a safety over the top, you need receivers that can create separation and make catches down-field in a precision passing game. My point being, even if you get the run game going and start attacking the secondary as they cheat to stop the run, without the talent at the WR position, you may not be able to exploit soft spots in a defense on play-action because of lack of separation. In a power-run game spread, called plays, audibles, and reading and reacting to the defense is less about precision but more about weaknesses in the defense and where they are vulnerable. It's why guys like Tebow, Braxton Miller, and RGIII did and do excel. Decisions are largely made for you and it's one, two reads at the most. Less about reading a defense and more about executing the designed play-call where X's & O's by the staff have essentially made the read for you.

I'm interested to see how it plays out. I do think a power-run game spread with Tate, West, and Crowell would be really fun to watch with Manziel at QB, assuming he can limit turnovers (which so far hasn't been his M.O.). I also think Cameron Jordan will be a monster in a Kyle Shanahan offense, especially if defenses have to account for Manziel's mobility. That's a ton of pressure on safeties and OLB's.

Chris said:

Another year of shit offense in our future I imagine.

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WellYouNeednt said:

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[video=youtube;cLyxmD_UAK4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLyxmD_UAK4[/video]

everything from here on out will be an improvement for manziel with the first team. pettine and shanahan seem to be at odds on how they are managing the quarterbacks.

Homer Safari said:

everything from here on out will be an improvement for manziel with the first team. pettine and shanahan seem to be at odds on how they are managing the quarterbacks.

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I really have no clue how you can make that statement.

billmac91 said:

It's just the nature of a power run, spread offense. Mobile QB's have an advantage out of the pocket when they can fake a dive into the LOS. It freezes line-backers and safeties, allowing mobile QB's to get the edge on run/throw options. It's why guys like RGIII, Colin Kapernick, and even Brxaton Miller at Ohio State are so successful. The threat of the mobile QB can also loosen up the defense in the middle as interior lineman, middle linebackers, and safeties all need to account for the edge.

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The spread offense isn't primarily run in the NFL during the regular season, although this past Super Bowl has illustrated it's effectiveness in a must-win situation at the pro level. During the regular season, RGIII got hurt, Kaepernick threw from the pocket, and Braxton Miller played college ball.

While in a standard power run game, play-action is a staple and can be very successful, we just don't see it a ton anymore. Even prototypical pocket QB's like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Drew Brees are involved in spread offenses. Kyle Shannahan will likely be more well versed in an offense suited to Manziel than Hoyer, IMO. If Manziel is even close to Hoyer coming out of camp (which he may not be) I still think Manziel probably gets a crack because there is a lot more you can do with him, and he puts more pressure on a defense with his versatility.

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Correction, we don't see the old power run game in the college game anymore because the college game is exclusively spread, while the pro game borrows elements and weaves it into the pro style offense. The pros run a hybrid, hence your examples of Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Drew Brees. What is most important with Manning, Brady, and Brees is clearly not their mobility.

There's also a huge concern in our wide-receiver make-up but this is a bit deeper down the rabbit-hole. With the lack of explosiveness without Josh Gordon for likely a long time, the limited capabilities of our guys on the outside is problematic. Even if you freeze a safety over the top, you need receivers that can create separation and make catches down-field in a precision passing game. My point being, even if you get the run game going and start attacking the secondary as they cheat to stop the run, without the talent at the WR position, you may not be able to exploit soft spots in a defense on play-action because of lack of separation. In a power-run game spread, called plays, audibles, and reading and reacting to the defense is less about precision but more about weaknesses in the defense and where they are vulnerable. It's why guys like Tebow, Braxton Miller, and RGIII did and do excel. Decisions are largely made for you and it's one, two reads at the most. Less about reading a defense and more about executing the designed play-call where X's & O's by the staff have essentially made the read for you.

I'm interested to see how it plays out. I do think a power-run game spread with Tate, West, and Crowell would be really fun to watch with Manziel at QB, assuming he can limit turnovers (which so far hasn't been his M.O.). I also think Cameron Jordan will be a monster in a Kyle Shanahan offense, especially if defenses have to account for Manziel's mobility. That's a ton of pressure on safeties and OLB's.

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The bolded section, again, show that you aren't talking about the pro game as much as the high school and college games. In the pro game, running the college spread plays exclusively lead to too many hits on your QB. Oakland recently tried to run college plays with Terrelle Pryor and clearly there were problems. Namely, the few choices of receivers are easily covered and the QB ends up hurt.

I'm short on time, but if Manziel's legs and escapability were on Hoyer's experienced brain and height, we would be having a different conversation.

kyle shanahan has conitnued to give manziel props. "he is further along in the playbook than we expected" he is ready for some first team reps" etc Pettine take a much more critical stance.

Homer Safari said:

kyle shanahan has conitnued to give manziel props. "he is further along in the playbook than we expected" he is ready for some first team reps" etc Pettine take a much more critical stance.

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You're reading too much into it.

Homer Safari said:

kyle shanahan has conitnued to give manziel props. "he is further along in the playbook than we expected" he is ready for some first team reps" etc Pettine take a much more critical stance.

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There is a place for positive/negative reinforcement within a highly emotional position, such as the QB. For me personally, it is way too early to over think comments made by the coaches/media. Training camp and pre-season games always tend to over or under value a players stock. They are a decent indicator of what to expect, however, it is a whole new ballgame come week 1.

I mean, even Weeden, Quinn and a whole gaggle of QBs looked decent via preseason. I have learned to always expect the unexpected.