Johnny Manziel: Swan Won't Return His Calls

Give him some damn time.

He has not looked good in the preseason. He has shown some "bright sides" but overall, it hasn't been overwhelmingly good. He needs to sit a year and watch, learn, keep practicing. Throw him in on some garbage time. Maybe use him around the red zone...we will see.

Preseason games do matter. But again, it's early. Everyone, including people in the NFL, and us, have no idea how he is going to turn out. He can turn into a reliable QB or can turn into a b00bie.

Let's take a breath and watch it unfold.

CosmoKramer said:

We're clearly not on the same page here.

You're making a point about their decision making, which I'd certainly agree with you is vastly different. I'm talking about their playing styles, or how they're going to be used to attack defenses.

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Ok I follow you. I view decision making as part of the equation when comparing the 2. Yes they will use similar plays but their actions and decision making in those plays are completely different.

Johnny is going to need to learn to make plays within the pocket or he's going to be a flop. It doesn't matter how dynamic or special he is outside the pocket if teams don't have to respect his ability within the pocket. It's easy to take away the bootlegs and designed runs if there's nothing else to worry about.

I know it's early but I struggle to think of any big plays he's made so far by simply stepping up and throwing the ball. His best throws have come rolling out and his biggest plays have been with his legs. I wish Pettine would've locked Manziel in the pocket last night instead of trying to play to his strengths. Use a meaningless game to force Manziel to work within the pocket.

Everyone is saying Hoyer is going to have a hard time holding off Manziel but if I'm a DC, I'd be licking my chops to take a crack at Johnny. Bring the pressure, don't give him room to roam and make him a pocket passer. As of right now, that would get Johnny killed. He needs to grow before I ever want to see him starting.

I think Manziel' s strongest supporters need to frame the conversation as, "This kid clearly has some skills and a feel for improvising, but this is a learning year. It's not all his fault, but he wasn't in anything close to a pro offense in college like Bottles and Bridgewater ran."

Spectre said:

Johnny is going to need to learn to make plays within the pocket or he's going to be a flop. It doesn't matter how dynamic or special he is outside the pocket if teams don't have to respect his ability within the pocket. It's easy to take away the bootlegs and designed runs if there's nothing else to worry about.

I know it's early but I struggle to think of any big plays he's made so far by simply stepping up and throwing the ball. His best throws have come rolling out and his biggest plays have been with his legs. I wish Pettine would've locked Manziel in the pocket last night instead of trying to play to his strengths. Use a meaningless game to force Manziel to work within the pocket.

Everyone is saying Hoyer is going to have a hard time holding off Manziel but if I'm a DC, I'd be licking my chops to take a crack at Johnny. Bring the pressure, don't give him room to roam and make him a pocket passer. As of right now, that would get Johnny killed. He needs to grow before I ever want to see him starting.

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Even if he totally maximizes his potential, I don't think you're going to be seeing Johnny throwing darts with perfect footwork all game. He's going to run around more than 95% of other starters in the league. Maybe the most. This is what we signed up for, and it's never going to be or look conventional.

Phills14 said:

If he wants to have success in the NFL that is absolutely what he SHOULD do. Playing like Wilson is how he will have success in this league. However; that role is not his style or personality. He wants to be the man. He wants to be the center of attention. He wants to put everything on his back and make the spectacular play to win a game. That's not how Wilson plays.

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I really like Wilson, but to me, he looks more like a game manager/leader than a great player who can actually win you some games on his own. That works very well if you've got a great team otherwise, but I'm not sure if that approach should be the ultimate goal set for other players. Manziel could certainly learn something about maturity and leadership from Wilson, who is basically a freak in that sense. But I'm not sure if you really want to weed out the desire for greatness.

If Manziel could calm down, play within the system most of the time and then make the spectacular play every once in a while he has a real chance to be good. I just think Manziel is his own worst enemy.

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I agree with that. He really needed more seasoning on college before going pro, but if he had that, perhaps he wouldn't have been there at 22 for us. This may be best viewed almost as a redshirt year for him, though I do think he'll end up getting some starts this year one way or another.

Yes, he's headstrong, but he's also apparently very smart. Put those two things together, and they suggest that he will figure out that toning it down a bit may help him. Prior to the season, there were a lot of folks pointing out that he wouldn't learn to slide because it just wasn't his personality. Then, there was that one roll out a couple of weeks ago where he barely made a first down, when he actually had a receiver to whom he could have thrown for an easy first down. But last night, I saw him sliding and going out of bounds intelligently, deliberately avoiding excess contact. And when that exact same rollout situation occurred, he threw it to the back this time instead of keeping it. He's learning.

Now, if he was stupid and headstrong, that would be a much worse problem.

Randolphkeys said:

I think Manziel' s strongest supporters need to frame the conversation as, "This kid clearly has some skills and a feel for improvising, but this is a learning year. It's not all his fault, but he wasn't in anything close to a pro offense in college like Bottles and Bridgewater ran."

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If Bortles ever develops a drinking problem this will come in quite handy. Marking it down for future reference.

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Amherstcavsfan said:

Stylistically, he's Brett Favre. At least thats what he looks like to me.

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The Tarkenton comparison is really the one that works for me, though I understand a lot of folks didn't get to see him play much. Tark had this weird elusiveness that really seems to mirror Manziel.

One point in Manziel's favor, and that distinguishes him (so far) from both Tark and Favre, is that he doesn't seem to have as much of as much of that gambler's penchant to throw interceptions. He may run sometimes when he should throw, and he may miss receivers, but he seems more inclined to take the INC than risk the INT.

Damien O'Connel said:

Even if he totally maximizes his potential, I don't think you're going to be seeing Johnny throwing darts with perfect footwork all game. He's going to run around more than 95% of other starters in the league. Maybe the most. This is what we signed up for, and it's never going to be or look conventional.

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He actually looked better throwing out of the pocket than inside the pocket, thus why i want to see him watch pocket passers on film. Out of the pocket he only needed to learn one thing, and that is to slide. It appears from yesterday he already learned that.

The Human Q-Tip said:

The Tarkenton comparison is really the one that works for me, though I understand a lot of folks didn't get to see him play much. Tark had this weird elusiveness that really seems to mirror Manziel.

One point in Manziel's favor, and that distinguishes him (so far) from both Tark and Favre, is that he doesn't seem to have as much of as much of that gambler's penchant to throw interceptions. He may run sometimes when he should throw, and he may miss receivers, but he seems more inclined to take the INC than risk the INT.

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Not this shit again...

BimboColesHair said:

Not this shit again...

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If you don't think their playing style is similar, fine. I watched him through the 70's and they look similar physically and in terms of how they move. Whether Manziel ever become 1/4 the quarterback Tarkenton was is a different question.

The Human Q-Tip said:

If you don't think their playing style is similar, fine. I watched him through the 70's and they look similar physically and in terms of how they move. Whether Manziel ever become 1/4 the quarterback Tarkenton was is a different question.

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I get the playing style comparisons, but the reasons for playing like that are completely opposite. Tarkenton did it out of necessity behind a newly formed expansion O-line, while Manziel does it because that's where he does most of his damage. Browns fans better pray Johnny becomes 1/4 the quarterback from the pocket Tarkenton was, let alone 1/4th the QB he was.

Tarkenton makes a ton of sense, in that many guys like him (Manziel included) would have succeeded in that era's version of the NFL but are far more unlikely to succeed in this one.

MRMsix6 said:

If Bortles ever develops a drinking problem this will come in quite handy. Marking it down for future.

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Auto correct is a total asshole.

Ive said since the day after the draft that guys like Favre, Rich Gannon, and Doug Flutie all needed a few years to succeed in the pocket. Only then was their skill outside of it useful. You don't need a shell shocked rookie who doesn't know how to make progressions facing a modern NFL defense.

BimboColesHair said:

I get the playing style comparisons, but the reasons for playing like that are completely opposite. Tarkenton did it out of necessity behind a newly formed expansion O-line, while Manziel does it because that's where he does most of his damage. Browns fans better pray Johnny becomes 1/4 the quarterback from the pocket Tarkenton was, let alone 1/4th the QB he was.

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That's just not true. The Vikings were an expansion team in 1961. Tarkenton was playing that same style in three Super Bowls in the 70's. I watched him. Take away his ability to move and run, and that offensive wouldn't have been nearly as potent.

Whether or not that style can be successful today is a different issue, as is whether Manziel can ever approach Tarkenton's accuracy and game-intelligence. I'm not a big fan of comparisons anyway -- a guy is what he is and should be evaluated based on that. But if someone wants to do one, and has seen both of those guys play, they look they same when playing even if the results are different. It's much better than Favre, who wasn't as elusive as either but had an absolute cannon.

But I don't buy into this "the days of the mobile QB are over" theme that seems to be running around a bit in here. Being able to extend plays with your legs is a huge bonus, whether you do it with strength like Roethlisberger, or elusiveness. Running is also a great weapon to have in the arsenal if you can do it -- Elway absolutely killed us with it sometimes. You still have to be able to throw the ball, but if a QB can extend plays, that's a big positive.

Other than last night, Manziel's arm has seemed fine to me. Whether he can improve his pocket footwork and awareness is a different question.