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Johnny Manziel: Swan Won't Return His Calls

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wuck said:
I'm with you on the first point. I'm not sure I understand how the 2nd part would work or why it's as important as the first.
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For the Browns franchise, it isn't. But, I do think Hoyer's success in the first third of the season was a tremendous moment for getting the franchise back on track. Sunday night after a brutal performance isn't the right time for people to remember it, but it should be remembered fondly in franchise history. As I have said for a while now, he is a local kid who ran offensive sets that predicated Brady-esque short rhythm passes but he transformed himself to a play-action deep thrower because that is what the scheme and personnel dictated. He helped this franchise more than he hurt it, and I do expect him to leave soon.

For Johnny, it isn't exactly fair that NFL fans have a short patience for QBs who struggle. But, in a world where college football no longer runs pro style offenses, Browns fans would benefit from understanding that this is the new way a quarterback develops... unless they are a freak with an ex-professional quarterback for a father like Andrew Luck.
 
When Manziel plays, he is going to make his mistakes and he's going to make his plays. That said, I have much more confidence that he could move the offense down the field better with his dual threat ability than I do in Hoyer.
 
Browns can start Manziel the last 4 games and if they feel he needs more development time bring in another QB. Much Like The Oilers did with Steve Mcnair who was 22 in his rookie year.
 
Randolphkeys said:
But, I do think Hoyer's success in the first third of the season was a tremendous moment for getting the franchise back on track. Sunday night after a brutal performance isn't the right time for people to remember it, but it should be remembered fondly in franchise history.
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I know it's been bleak for the past 15 years, but I really don't think we can start giving away cookies for playing well for a third of a season.

I mean listen, it's an awesome story. Local kid gets a shot with the local team and does some great things for a bit. But that and 50 cents will get you a can of coke. It really means nothing in the end.

Just look at that kid who plays for our basketball team. The story was great, but winning is all that matters.
 
spydy13 said:
I know it's been bleak for the past 15 years, but I really don't think we can start giving away cookies for playing well for a third of a season.

I mean listen, it's an awesome story. Local kid gets a shot with the local team and does some great things for a bit. But that and 50 cents will get you a can of coke. It really means nothing in the end.

Just look at that kid who plays for our basketball team. The story was great, but winning is all that matters.
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The opinion of the team couldn't have been lower going into this season. I get irritated that Cleveland Browns fans have fine wine tastes because I've put in the work in turning around cultures of schools professionally... its hard as a motherfucker and rarely appreciated. So, I like mentioning Hoyer's role in breaking this team out of the Oakland/Jacksonville category and into the category of a team that competes weekly. After hours of debate, we know where each other stand.
 
NtG said:
One quick thought:

1. He can't be any worse than Hoyer.
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This is an awful argument.

I'm frustrated as hell with Hoyer & don't believe he's done squat to keep his job. However..

You absolutely do not start Manziel unless he's proven that ready to start.

If he's having trouble making the reads, getting the playbook down pat, etc in practices, then he's absolutely gonna get killed out there.

The Voice said:
How do we know he's not ready? Just because the coaching staff says so? Again, if it was that easy. Then why wasn't Tom Brady starting for the pats when Bledsoe got hurt? He was clearly the better option.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk at your local pub.
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Um yeah, that's kinda how this works, seeing as how we have no idea how practices are going or how Manziel is progressing...

If Hoyer is named the starter again, ask yourselves this:

-The Browns took this kid in the 1st round. Obviously, they have had high hopes for him this entire time & view him as a guy who can be a franchise QB

-Before this week, they were still in the hunt for a playoff berth, so it would've made sense for them to start the guy who they thought gave them the best chance to win. Hoyer's been struggling mightily.

There simply has to be a reason they haven't made the move yet, especially with Hoyer struggling the way he has.

They wouldn't purposely keep the guy benched if they legitimately thought he's ready to take over & that he'd provide them with the best chance to win.

This whole narrative that "oh, the Browns are so stupid for sticking with Hoyer" or "They just refuse to give Johnny a chance" needs to be put to bed.
 
I will simplify this for everyone: sticking with Hoyer provides a 10% chance he straightens out, and the Browns finish strong. Going with Manziel provides a 0% chance, as the staff clearly feels he isn't ready to handle being the QB of a team doing something other than rebuilding. And here is the catch-Pettine MUST finish strong. A crap finish by the previous Coaching Option E got that guy canned by Haslam, who wanted to 'make a splash*' with his coaching hire. There is a high profile coach who will be on the market in the offseason, a guy that Haslam pursued already. Pettine knows this. He knows a weak finish opens the door for this. His decision to stick with Hoyer, despte Hoyer's obvious struggles, speaks loudly as to who he feels can help him avoid this fate.... struggling QB, or rookie backup? Shit sandwich, or feces hoagie? Like it or not, but that was the opinion of the guys whose future employment depends on these decisions. And they obviousy feel Manziel isn't ready.
 
MyBodyIsReadySnape.gif
 
I don't think Pettine's job is in jeopardy. He would have had to be worse than Shurmur, who IMO was the worst coach the Browns have hired in their history, to even be on the hot seat. I think he's exceeded expectations thus far. There is no way Haslam can pull off another coaching fire/hire so quickly.

With regard to the QB decision, I do agree with @macbdog that the decision Pettine made last week was more of a who will suck less decision than who gives us the best chance to win. Bottom line, if Manziel was the Manziel of A&M in practice he would have been an easy decision and probably would have been the starting QB earlier than the Colts game. The players would have seen it, the coaching staff would have been unanimous behind it. However; that didn't happen last week. You had players coming to Hoyer's defense and the head coach stayed with him.

I think the only thing we can assume about Manziel in practice is that he's still learning and has a long way to go. Now, the question is does he look like a high school player or is he actually a legit starting QB type player. That we don't know. He played well enough in his lone stint last week that said he's at least progressing.

I fully expect Manziel to be named the starter this week. However; I had the same confidence level last week too.
 
:chuckle:

Did he really say "I'd have fuckin hit him," in that gif?
 
MoFlo said:
This is an awful argument.

I'm frustrated as hell with Hoyer & don't believe he's done squat to keep his job. However..

You absolutely do not start Manziel unless he's proven that ready to start.
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I understand your point, but Pettine already said publicly after last week's game that Manziel was "ready", and has been ready for awhile. He also said that Manziel's performance made it a "tough" decision heading into the Indy game. In light of that, the argument that "he's not ready" doesn't seem to have any factual support. Seems more like they both were "ready", but Pettine thought Hoyer gave the team the better chance to win because he'd been playing all season.

Based on his own comments last week, it's pretty clear that Pettine's evaluation was wrong. He said that Hoyer "had to get better", and that he thought Hoyer would play better against Indy. That didn't happen. Now maybe all that stuff about Manziel being ready for weeks was just B.S., and stated for public consumption, but it is completely fair to hold Pettine to his public statements. And why would he have put Manziel in at all last week if he wasn't "ready"?

As to why Pettine stuck with Hoyer, I think it may be a bit of residual D-coordinator mindset in that he would prefer a more predictable guy less likely to make mistakes, and less likely to put the defense in bad positions. He envisioned our defense holding them to fewer points, as opposed to our offensive outscoring theirs, and that even a "meh" day by Hoyer against a fairly weak defense would be enough. But Hoyer didn't even give him "meh".

Personally, I'd give Manziel the shot right now even if he isn't ready. If part of the concern about him is overconfidence leading to a lack to studying/working, then sticking him in the real shit for a couple of games would be a great wake-up call going into the off-season. Let him see how far he still has to go, and use that as motivation in preparing for next year. And if he completely and utterly bombs so badly that he looks like he might get killed, there won't be any arguing about sticking Hoyer back in to finish the season.
 
Randolphkeys said:
A couple quick thoughts:

1. The title change was an unmitigated bad choice. Believe it or not, we have standards here. Wait for proof.

2. People forget that the team and coaches have seen what Johnny can and can't do. Yes, fans should be frustrated by Hoyer after this game. They should be looking at all the errors all the offensive players made, but that requires a keen eye.

3. What happens when you throw out a guy who isn't ready to read defenses, can't make progressions, and hasn't been able to grasp the playbook? I think the projections by fans that they know Manziel's level of preparation better than professionals is well intentioned, but at the end of the day Johnny Manziel should play when he is actually ready to play.
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1. Call it a hunch. I'm just hopeful the Browns finally attach Hoyer's ass to the bench, it's been necessary for weeks now. 1 passing TD over the last 62 possessions...

2. Rookie head coaches are capable of making mistakes, misjudging a player's readiness being one example.

And ugh, it didn't take a keen eye to see who cost us that game yesterday. You've just got to take the blinders off- you still taking Hoyer over Tony Romo and Cam Newton Keys?

The line and the WRs didn't play great, but they didn't sink to sub-replacement level units either. Brian Hoyer continued a month long trend of playing like ass yesterday. The botched short fields, inaccurate throws, and terrible decisions cost us multiple scores and subsequently the win.

I don't know how else to say it. He's given us the QB equivalent of anal leakage. Just uncontrollable shit, embarrassed looks for everyone involved, and stained bed sheets. Sorry Keys, his mediocre first half of the season doesn't cover up the stench of the past few weeks.

3. What happens? I'll assure you it'll be better than continuing to roll out a guy with no mobility, terrible accuracy, and an inability to read the field. For all the talk of his great decision making in the beginning of the year he's currently sporting a hideous 11:12 TD:INT ratio, only QBs with a worse ratio are Geno Smith, Blake Bortles, and Josh McCown.
 
BooyaCS said:
Yet he has never been given the opportunity to "earn" it.
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Outside of the off-season and training camp, no.

BooyaCS said:
Manziel was a RS Sophmore. A college Junior he had 3 years in a college football program.

Also there have been several 1 year starters in college that have had some success in the NFL. Tannehill started a very similar number of games at QB to Manziel. Tannehill started 20 games at A&M to Manziel's 24.
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Tannehill struggled mightily throughout most of his first two seasons, and looked nowhere near ready to play at a high level.

Inexperience at the college level and early playing time at the NFL level is almost never a good combination, and the fact that Ryan Tannehill is the best counterpoint to this argument only emphasizes that.


The Voice said:
Fine, if you'd like a better answer and someone more comparable. 3 years in college, one being a red shirt.

Mike Vick
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Vick got just two starts his rookie season, looked completely lost as a passer when he was in.
 
The Human Q-Tip said:
I understand your point, but Pettine already said publicly after last week's game that Manziel was "ready", and has been ready for awhile. He also said that Manziel's performance made it a "tough" decision heading into the Indy game. In light of that, the argument that "he's not ready" doesn't seem to have any factual support. Seems more like they both were "ready", but Pettine thought Hoyer gave the team the better chance to win because he'd been playing all season.

Based on his own comments last week, it's pretty clear that Pettine's evaluation was wrong. He said that Hoyer "had to get better", and that he thought Hoyer would play better against Indy. That didn't happen. Now maybe all that stuff about Manziel being ready for weeks was just B.S., and stated for public consumption, but it is completely fair to hold Pettine to his public statements. And why would he have put Manziel in at all last week if he wasn't "ready"?

As to why Pettine stuck with Hoyer, I think it may be a bit of residual D-coordinator mindset in that he would prefer a more predictable guy less likely to make mistakes, and less likely to put the defense in bad positions. He envisioned our defense holding them to fewer points, as opposed to our offensive outscoring theirs, and that even a "meh" day by Hoyer against a fairly weak defense would be enough. But Hoyer didn't even give him "meh".

Personally, I'd give Manziel the shot right now even if he isn't ready. If part of the concern about him is overconfidence leading to a lack to studying/working, then sticking him in the real shit for a couple of games would be a great wake-up call going into the off-season. Let him see how far he still has to go, and use that as motivation in preparing for next year. And if he completely and utterly bombs so badly that he looks like he might get killed, there won't be any arguing about sticking Hoyer back in to finish the season.
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-Do you really expect Pettine to admit it publicly if Manziel is having trouble picking up the playbook, knowing the plays, and reading defenses in practice? I guess for a normal rookie, he could've said something generic, but this is Manziel, you know if he would've said anything negative, the media would've had a field day with it, just like they did in training camp, when he was seen out & about instead of trying to learn the playbook.

-Once you go to Manziel, there's no going back to Hoyer. There's just simply not. That just opens up a can of worms that shouldn't be opened.

-Why go to your rookie 1st rd guy when he isn't ready? He's not some 3rd rounder that you hope will cut it. They clearly think the guy is talented enough to be a franchise guy, why mess with him if he doesn't have the offense down pat? Do you really want the rest of the offense correcting him on plays in the huddle/on the field? You take a lot of risks putting him out there if he's not ready.

-No, "he can't be worse than Hoyer" isn't a good reason to put him out there, as some have said.

-Defensive coach or not, if he would've thought Manziel was ready & would've provided a better chance to win, he would've went with him. Even as a defensive coach, you know they can't be on the field the whole game, so if he would've thought Manziel would've given at least a lil leeway to the D, he would've made the switch.
 
NtG said:
One quick thought:

1. He can't be any worse than Hoyer.
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How soon we forget... :rolleyes:

What if Johnny is the next Blaine Gabbert? We just don't know yet.
 
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