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Dion Waiters

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I'mWithDan said:
Your eyes tell you something every advanced stat does not. Got it. Now we can all move on.
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DRtg cannot be used how you guys are trying to use it... It's applicable to the conversation to compare Waiters to Smith, but it certainly isn't the end all to all, not even close. It's more designed to measure SFs and bigs, as it takes into account their box score production more meaningfully than the defensive contributions of perimeter players.

Not trying to get into you guys argument, but Waiters in OKC has been a better defender than Smith either here or in New York, statistically, AFAIK -- but we can't use "advanced stats" to make that case using mathematics as the only empirical evidence. Physical observation is probably more relevant, even if only anecdotal, at this point.

I think that's what SteelSmack is trying to say.
 
Dion can succeed as a sixth man all he wants in OKC, feel free. This Cavaliers team wasn't going anywhere without a center like Mozgov and a stronger defensive presence on the perimeter like Shumpert. It would have been great to add two important pieces without losing Dion, but it didn't work out that way. You don't go from being the team who won the lottery to the championship without making some serious roster changes. You have to give something up to get something. And if losing a guy who isn't very coachable or smart, if it means losing the guy who consistently goes 1 on 4 late in games and seems SHOCKED he didn't get the foul call, if it means losing a guy who is capable of being an off-ball player but chooses not to... well, don't let the door hit ya' where the Good Lord split ya.
 
Randolphkeys said:
Dion can succeed as a sixth man all he wants in OKC, feel free. This Cavaliers team wasn't going anywhere without a center like Mozgov and a stronger defensive presence on the perimeter like Shumpert. It would have been great to add two important pieces without losing Dion, but it didn't work out that way. You don't go from being the team who won the lottery to the championship without making some serious roster changes. You have to give something up to get something. And if losing a guy who isn't very coachable or smart, if it means losing the guy who consistently goes 1 on 4 late in games and seems SHOCKED he didn't get the foul call, if it means losing a guy who is capable of being an off-ball player but chooses not to... well, don't let the door hit ya' where the Good Lord split ya.
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What exactly was Dion's role on this team again? Bron & Blatt came into the season telling Dion to be agressive and shoot whenever he's open and to create and play his game. He does that for the first few games and then he gets benched and subsequently scapegoated for our team's early struggles...

Then we tasked him with running the 2nd unit. Only issue was that Blatt would play Kyrie with Dion and the bench crew so Dion would once again have to play a off-ball role....something not typical of players playing the sixth man role. Even when Kyrie went out, Bron typically came back in so Dion still wouldn't be able to play with the ball in his hands.

Only time he really got to play the with the ball in his hands and create and have freedom was when he came in at the end of blowouts and by that time he already wasn't enthused and didn't really feel like he was a part of game (as he typically wasn't).

You seem to put the blame on Dion but you should be blaming Blatt and the coaching staff for not making his role clear and maximizing his skillset.

Before the season Blatt said himself that if Dion didn't do well this year or it didn't work out, it would be on his (Blatt) head...

I think it's lazy and misguided to strictly blame Dion for the way his season progressed in Cleveland this year. Surely he didn't play as well as he could have but what do you expect when your role seemingly changes every couple games?

We did him no favors at all this year. But what's done is done so it doesn't matter anymore.
 
Cashius X said:
What exactly was Dion's role on this team again?
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Former teammate.

Cashius X said:
Bron & Blatt came into the season telling Dion to be agressive and shoot whenever he's open and to create and play his game.
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Citation needed. I read articles where Dion said he had to adapt to playing with LeBron.

Cashius X said:
He does that for the first few games and then he gets benched and subsequently scapegoated for our team's early struggles...
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I think he was benched more for his defense than his offense, but I was just about done watching him play hero ball when other teammates were more accomplished and open.

Cashius X said:
Then we tasked him with running the 2nd unit. Only issue was that Blatt would play Kyrie with Dion and the bench crew so Dion would once again have to play a off-ball role....something not typical of players playing the sixth man role. Even when Kyrie went out, Bron typically came back in so Dion still wouldn't be able to play with the ball in his hands.
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Sometimes. Blatt did a lot of juggling, especially while Delly was injured. I don't think that coaches always used Dion in ways he was most comfortable - playing off the ball - because they wanted him to develop past what he was in Syracuse. He needed to learn how to use his teammates and play off teammates. Delly was good at setting up the offense and letting Dion penetrate. Without Delly, Dion didn't play off his teammates well.

Cashius X said:
You seem to put the blame on Dion but you should be blaming Blatt and the coaching staff for not making his role clear and maximizing his skillset.
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Lazy defense, which is my primary concern with Waiters, was all his doing and his job to fix. Coaches could tell him how to move his feet, but Dion had to move his feet. On offense, Dion said he needed to play off others. Then he didn't.

Cashius X said:
I think it's lazy and misguided to strictly blame Dion for the way his season progressed in Cleveland this year. Surely he didn't play as well as he could have but what do you expect when your role seemingly changes every couple games?
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Hey, I was a big fan of Dion before the draft. I didn't think he should have gone in the top 6, but I liked his game as a third guard on a contender. Now that is what he is going to be for OKC. As I mentioned previously, if the Cavaliers didn't have such a long list of holes to plug in more important places than third guard, I would have been fine waiting on Waiters to figure it all out. But the team had fallen apart without Varejao. You have to give something up to get something. And that is on Griffin.
 
kevin02 said:
I mean the difference to me is clear. Coming into the season we told Waiters we wanted him to be a 3 and D player. When Dion didn't do this (which is not his fault IMO) we benched him so that he could go back to being a scorer off the bench. Even after doing this however, we still had him on a really short leash because we all ready had 3 elite scorers so there was no need for him to play if he was playing poorly on any given night.
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Dion's biggest problem here wasn't the length of his leash. It was his moodiness, and how the rest of his game generally went in the toilet if things weren't going his way on the offensive end. So yes, if he missed some shots -- especially bad ones -- he was often yanked, but it was because his defense, off-ball movement, body language, and everything else went in the crapper.

I think most of the folks here who really liked him as a guy would admit he had some growing up to do, regardless of whether or not they agreed with how the Cavs handled him. I hope he does it in OKC.
 
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Czvosec said:
Dion only thinks he's touching the ball more.

View: https://twitter.com/johnschuhmann/status/557581580978638849

Perception is reality though...
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I honestly think this is the case for him. He had such a negative, "everyone is against me" view in Cleveland that the only way for him to play better was to get a change of scenery.

That being said, playing marginally better in 5 games means nothing. He's done that before here. We'll see if everything is lovey dovey when he goes through a bad stretch.
 
Dion has abysmally poor defensive awareness, or maybe it's just understanding how to effectively be a cog in a team defensive effort.

He does get blocks and steals though, but that's largely a product of his poor awareness, and he hones in specifically on jumping lanes. He doesn't rotate well. Dion may move his feet better than Smith, but Smith is less likely to lose someone or cause a defensive breakdown by not rotating properly.

Apples and oranges.
 
I don't think am the only one here who expected Waiters to "thrive" in OKC. Their "system" encourages the type of shots Dion regularly took here and on the other end, their collective length and activity means it won't be as obvious when he takes defensive plays off.

He's in the perfect situation right now, and he should be focused on taking advantage of that. If he flunks there, he runs the risk of getting typecast around the league.
 
InBoobieWeTrust said:
Dion has abysmally poor defensive awareness, or maybe it's just understanding how to effectively be a cog in a team defensive effort.

He does get blocks and steals though, but that's largely a product of his poor awareness, and he hones in specifically on jumping lanes. He doesn't rotate well. Dion may move his feet better than Smith, but Smith is less likely to lose someone or cause a defensive breakdown by not rotating properly.

Apples and oranges.
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Something tells me you're not watching him in OKC...

Defense is largely about effort and when he tries (as he has been in OKC) he's a damn good on-ball defender.
 
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Anyone notice Waiters is still rocking KI's shoes?
 
Cashius X said:
Something tells me you're not watching him in OKC...

Defense is largely about effort and when he tires (as he has been in OKC) he's a damn good on-ball defender.
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Think this is kind of what the post said. Moves feet well means he's good at staying with his guy but the post talked about his horrible team D
 
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