Love/Wiggins Trade Revisited

tedginnjr said:

If you already have two high usage perimeter players, how much more valuable is Wiggins compared to Shumpert? Now what's the jump from Marion or Tristan at PF to Love?

Can't believe anyone thinks Wiggins gives us a better chance at a title than Love on this roster...

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I was going to make a long ass drawn out post covering this but you saved me the time.

Dion was mentioned in the letter... that letter didn't mean much with regards to roster composition. Once LeBron penned it, he was already married to Cleveland permanently.

We didn't have to make the trade.

Let's not say "Wiggins wouldn't have been as good," we don't know that. Irving has played better under LeBron, than any other person so far. Who saw that coming?

Let's also not say that LeBron wouldn't have returned without Kevin Love -- we don't know that either. Windhorst said we could've drafted Parker and that would've sufficed to satisfy LeBron -- in essence, he wanted someone else who could score the ball... Wiggins has demonstrated, in the first half of the season, that he's more than capable of doing so.

Look... I don't want to find myself arguing over Wiggins/Love at this point. But I also can't abide by weak and illogical arguments about things that are more supposition than fact.

Fact of the matter is that Wiggins is doing some amazing things right now and Kevin Love is going through a really rough patch. I think Wiggins is outperforming anything that either myself, Cosmo, or any of the other Wiggins guys thought. Many of us had him on a slightly higher than Paul George trajectory, which in 3 years, is still better than Kevin Love at his best (yes, PG > Love, and that's not a knock on Love at all). It looks like now, he's greatly exceeding expectations.

With that said, people are evaluating the trade in the vacuum of now, a form of present-bias, where we are discounting what Love can do historically. We're also not taking into account that Love is a big, he's only 26 years old, and he's put up historically good numbers on the offensive side of the floor. His growth projection, barring injury, can only assumed to be on an upward trajectory due to his age, high basketball I.Q., and versatility. He's also, probably like Pau, got another 8-10 years left in the tank due to his non-physical game (far less than Pau actually).

Look, do I think the trade was the best move for the Cavs? I don't know... honestly, if I were the GM, I wouldn't have done it -- I never thought GSW would trade Klay. Beyond that, if you ask me who is better today -- well, if Love weren't injured, it'd be him, without a doubt. But the case for that assumption (and it is an assumption because Love is in fact injured and hasn't had a great season) is looking weaker every day. But, if you asked me in the summer, or even today, who is going to be better in 3-4 years? The answer is Andrew Wiggins.

Real Deal said:

I question your knowledge if you think 17-10 is a role player. Mozgov, TT, Shump, JR, those are role players.

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I misused the term.
The meaning was that we have a player that fills a specific need for our team. Not a role player in the traditional sense. Sorry.

Taiter said:

I hated the Wiggins trade but I'm not a Love hater.

I wanted to keep Wiggins because I saw a lot of potential on a cheap contract, a guy who'd be ready to assume the star mantle as Lebron's sun started to set...possibly a 12-15 year period of contention. And from what I've seen so far, Love is a very good player but I've been a little disappointed. Wiggins meanwhile has been better than I expected this early.

That said, I hope the Cavs win a few titles (heck, after watching this team for almost 40 years I'd take one title) with Love and I get to look back and say it was worth it.

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Sorry, but in Cleveland and in the NBA in general you don't build for 12-15 year periods. You build for 3-5 year periods, and when you have the best player in the game you play to win now.

Wiggins will never be as good as lebron. Winning just 1 ship in Cleveland will be a goddamn miracle, people complaining about the trade are quite simply being greedy. We have a veritable dream-team for a mid market, lets just enjoy it.

People talked about Tim Duncan's window closing by 33-34.

As skilled and smart as LeBron is, why do we assume our window with him is limited to his athletic prime. Look at his game, many facets of it will be at top level well into his mid to late thirties.

Then look at Kyrie. He hasn't even hit his prime or ceiling. He's learning from the best in the game and bringing a new found dedication the defense.

Love is 26. He's having an off year so far but why does anyone assume that is the new norm?

Shump and Tristan both can continue to become better and are both under 24.

Also, who's to say that we don't end up with our Kawhi or our Jimmy Butler in the 2015 or 2017 draft?

It's just really silly and unwarranted to be talking about us as having some 3-4 year window as a championship contender.

@MirORich , having watched James play both here and in Miami, unless something changes, I don't think he'll last very long. He depends on his athleticism to get to the hole, to get his game going, to take hits, and outperform his opponents.

I'm not the only person who thinks this either, that's one of the reasons LeBron wanted to go with a lighter build, to extend his career. But I think that's a mistake. He should be moving towards becoming a full-time power-forward, not a full-time guard.

Zen said:

Sorry, but in Cleveland and in the NBA in general you don't build for 12-15 year periods. You build for 3-5 year periods, and when you have the best player in the game you play to win now.

Wiggins will never be as good as lebron. Winning just 1 ship in Cleveland will be a goddamn miracle, people complaining about the trade are quite simply being greedy. We have a veritable dream-team for a mid market, lets just enjoy it.

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I think that's unfair, and a bit of a cop out.

I think people are saying that we would've been better off without Kevin Love, and that's certainly a valid argument.

MY view is that the Cavaliers have demonstrated a complete inability to evaluate draft talent and have shown little to no foresight whatsoever. That's very concerning to me. We don't seem to build for the future, utilize the draft, maximize our assets, properly scout talent, maximize our roster, or develop young players (like Kyrie).

I don't think you can say "fuck people who don't like the trade," without discounting your own position in the argument entirely.

Zen said:

Sorry, but in Cleveland and in the NBA in general you don't build for 12-15 year periods. You build for 3-5 year periods, and when you have the best player in the game you play to win now.

Wiggins will never be as good as lebron. Winning just 1 ship in Cleveland will be a goddamn miracle, people complaining about the trade are quite simply being greedy. We have a veritable dream-team for a mid market, lets just enjoy it.

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I don't think the people are greedy. We simply thought waiting was the best course while actually seeing what they had in Wiggins.

This is a franchise that's been burned; with a 22 year old Kyrie and a 19 year old Wiggins, both of whom which would have had a long playoff run this year with lBJ, the future would have been damn bright.

I have no real issue with the Love trade. He's 26 and entering his prime. Allegedly he's staying in Cleveland. He hasn't played anywhere near his potential yet here. It made sense.

But moving Wiggins may ultimately be a mistake.

Even though I would have preferred that the trade would never have been made, the real conundrum the trade creates is Love's contract status and the undue leverage it brings to him.

For the Cavs, I do not believe the smart thing is a max extension, because the guy, while he might be more than a role player, does not appear to me to be a MAX player on THIS TEAM. They should not be roped into this because it was the media assumption when the trade was made.

The team will be locked out of better options which might present themselves, as well as be forced to give up pieces they would prefer to keep. The Love we see now on a multi-year max will be extremely hard to move.

But of course, letting him walk to a team who will pay it is really the unthinkable outcome because they will not be able to replace him. And this is why I think they have to perform their due-dilligence on trade options prior to the upcoming trade deadline.

Love has given the team some leeway with his opt-in declaration. They need to HOLD HIM TO IT; he will be more fairly paid for the 2015-16 season and the team will have the flexibility to trade him if he proves to be NOT THE ANSWER. I would even give him a one-year max if it makes it easier on his ego. But the multi-year max is OUT!

chuck0609 said:

I don't think the people are greedy. We simply thought waiting was the best course while actually seeing what they had in Wiggins.

This is a franchise that's been burned; with a 22 year old Kyrie and a 19 year old Wiggins, both of whom which would have had a long playoff run this year with lBJ, the future would have been damn bright.

I have no real issue with the Love trade. He's 26 and entering his prime. Allegedly he's staying in Cleveland. He hasn't played anywhere near his potential yet here. It made sense.

But moving Wiggins may ultimately be a mistake.

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This sums it up nicely.

The trade was a hell of a gamble. A gamble that may not pay off.

gourimoko said:

Many of us had him on a slightly higher than Paul George trajectory, which in 3 years, is still better than Kevin Love at his best (yes, PG > Love, and that's not a knock on Love at all).

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Amazing.

gourimoko said:

He should be moving towards becoming a full-time power-forward, not a full-time guard.

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When players age, especially wing players like LeBron, they develop their jumpshot in place of their declining athleticism. They don't develop their ability to rebound and bang around in the paint.

LeBron is a point-forward, he's not a center-forward. He should be developing his jumper and passing skills--and that's what he's doing.

One thing to consider is that a max this year will be a LOT less than a max next year. I'm not in favor of a long-term Love extension but what if he's struggling a year from now and still demanding a max?

gourimoko said:

Dion was mentioned in the letter... that letter didn't mean much with regards to roster composition. Once LeBron penned it, he was already married to Cleveland permanently.

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I think the Cavaliers wanted to try to make it work with Dion. When things weren't going well and they had an opportunity to improve the team, they jumped on it.

gourimoko said:

Irving has played better under LeBron, than any other person so far. Who saw that coming?

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Not being sarcastic here, but didn't everyone expect this? I certainly did.

gourimoko said:

Fact of the matter is that Wiggins is doing some amazing things right now and Kevin Love is going through a really rough patch.

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"Amazing things" = exciting highlights? He's been impressive as a rookie, but amazing?

gourimoko said:

With that said, people are evaluating the trade in the vacuum of now, a form of present-bias, where we are discounting what Love can do historically. We're also not taking into account that Love is a big, he's only 26 years old, and he's put up historically good numbers on the offensive side of the floor. His growth projection, barring injury, can only assumed to be on an upward trajectory due to his age, high basketball I.Q., and versatility. He's also, probably like Pau, got another 8-10 years left in the tank due to his non-physical game (far less than Pau actually).

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We agree.

gourimoko said:

But, if you asked me in the summer, or even today, who is going to be better in 3-4 years? The answer is Andrew Wiggins.

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Back to disagreeing. I think a healthy Love is more valuable than Wiggins, both now and 3-4 years from now. I think it's a great deal for both teams.

Jscc said:

Amazing.

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Lol.. I hope you're joking, right?

You've got Kevin Love ahead of former MVP candidate Paul George? Paul George who was one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA? Who many said was the second-best two-way player in the game, period, behind LeBron James??

Methinks you never watched the guy play the game. George was an absolute beast... on both sides of the floor..

Ultimately what does Wiggins bring to the table besides scoring?