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Kyrie Irving

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gourimoko said:
I didn't say he wasn't comparable to Jordan, plenty of players are "comparable." But I don't think he has a realistic chance to eclipse Jordan as the GOAT. I think that's fantasy. And frankly, Jordan was the better basketball player.

I think the vast majority of players, analysts and commentators in the league would tell you the same thing.

There was a point in James career where the possibility existed. James' first three years on the Heat looked like he would have a real shot at it. But too many people are ignoring James' regression from 2012 to today.

He's not the same player, in the same system, or playing at the same level. Those are the hard facts. He needed to continue at that level to have a chance to be considered better than Jordan and that doesn't look like it's going to happen, for better or worse.

But from my standpoint, I respect him a hell of a lot for making the sacrifice to come back to Cleveland when he did, instead of sticking it out in Miami for another year.



I think 30-year old Kyrie has a great shot at being as good as 30-year old LeBron James; at least, he has a chance at having a statistically better season. The same way Steph Curry is having a statistically better season than LeBron is right now.

I do think LBJ is the best player in the league, and I do think he'll go down as Top 3 of all time. But with that said, I think you are drastically underestimating Kyrie Irving.



But that wasn't what you were trying to convince anyone of is it?

You quoted my very simple, small, 5 sentence post that said Kyrie is no Robin, he is no sidekick, and he is no "second option."

I never said he was or will be better than LeBron James.

p.s.
I asked you this before, and I don't think you answered it; but, how old are you? For some reason I think you're not old enough to have even watched Jordan play... is that right? I think that would explain why to you, LeBron can somehow top him.

I've never felt James was even close to Jordan, but that's probably because I remember Jordan.
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I'm 18. Yes I didn't get to watch Jordan play. I'll admit that. But I'm an avid basketball fan, which led me to watching plenty of old tapes of his games and championships runs so I know how good of a player he was (access to his statistics, accolades, and accomplishments don't hurt either). And I think Lebron has a very good chance of surpassing Jordan.

Why not? Jordan didn't start his second threepeat until he was 33. Lebron is still only 30 and has 2 championships. You say he's regressing but how about you wait until the playoffs to say something like that. Lebron is in chill mode right now (27/7/6 is still pretty impressive for being in chill mode) but I would bet anything he'll unleash everything come playoff time. He's still as good of a player as he was 2 years ago. He just doesn't choose to show it all the time, especially if it means wasting all his energy in regular season games.
 
gourimoko said:
Err...

You quoted KingJamesGospel and Bleacher Report, and the articles were titled:

1) "Kyrie Irving Considered One of the Most Overrated Players"

and

2) "Kyrie Irving is the Most Overrated Superstar"
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Are we going to act like this didn't happen?


View: https://twitter.com/Mr_Norof/status/427845800924700672



wixlMvO.png



https://twitter.com/BillSimmons/statuses/405132004670185472

You can't be considered clutch and be god awful at winning



Bro, I lived in Miami when Wade won his first; methinks you have no idea WTF you're talking about.
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The last 3 years in Miami, Heat fans were mostly annoyed with Wade. Lebron was the undisputed king and noone thought they were equally important to those titles.
 
LeBron is the best. LeBron is the leader. From a pure basketball standpoint, Kyrie is arguably equally as important to the team (LeBron's ability & willingness to set up his teammates gives him the slight edge for now) and even more important when factoring in the future.
 
This thread has deviated from the topic so why don't I steer it back on course.

NBA.com just put out an article of the Top 10 backcourts. Kyrie and JR were ranked 7th while the Wall and Beal tandem's overrated asses were ranked 3rd and Lowry and Derozan were ranked 2nd. Even Chicago's backcourt ranked ahead of the Cavs.

http://on.nba.com/1NziT4E
 
Lots of people have been hating on Kyrie for a long time. It's not hard to find old opinions, especially from people who have since gone back and changed their opinion of Irving.

While I don't think there is much value in arguing who is the alpha between Kyrie or LeBron, any argument that Irving is the same player he was last season is flatly wrong. He took a huge leap running the USA team for Coach K this past summer, and that rededication to his daily preparation continued into this season. Obsessing about his lackluster 2013 season doesn't mean as much as the present, and is frankly just trying to piss people off with a valueless topic.
 
Rob said:
LeBron is the best. LeBron is the leader. From a pure basketball standpoint, Kyrie is arguably equally as important to the team (LeBron's ability & willingness to set up his teammates gives him the slight edge for now) and even more important when factoring in the future.
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This.

Rob, this is all I'm saying...
 
gourimoko said:
This.

Rob, this is all I'm saying...
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Come playoff time, it'll be obvious who's the most important guy on this team and you can talk to me then. That's all I have to say. There's a reason that Lebron makes any team he's on an immediate championship contender. Kyrie is far and away the second most important player on his team and arguably a top 10 player in this league. But Lebron is the best player in basketball and without him we would go nowhere (Kyrie's presence takes us from conference finals exit to championship contender; Lebron takes us from borderline playoff team to championship contender). We may not have even seen the best of Lebron yet. He's holding it in for the playoffs and personally I can't wait.
 
Randolphkeys said:
Lots of people have been hating on Kyrie for a long time. It's not hard to find old opinions, especially from people who have since gone back and changed their opinion of Irving.

While I don't think there is much value in arguing who is the alpha between Kyrie or LeBron, any argument that Irving is the same player he was last season is flatly wrong. He took a huge leap running the USA team for Coach K this past summer, and that rededication to his daily preparation continued into this season. Obsessing about his lackluster 2013 season doesn't mean as much as the present, and is frankly just trying to piss people off with a valueless topic.
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No doubt. Kyrie took a tremendous leap from last season to this season. He's probably a top 10 player in the league. But if he wants to get on Lebron's level he'd have to take about 5 or 6 more of those "leaps" because as good as Kyrie is, Lebron's importance to this team blows Kyrie's importance out of the water and that's no shot at Kyrie. It just shows how good Lebron is.
 
Bballguy4 said:
Are we going to act like this didn't happen?
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I take it you aren't up on current events? Or are just fishing...

Quote Bill Simmons:

But I couldn’t shake the fear that I had screwed up. I spent the next two weeks watching Cleveland more closely, ultimately bumping Kyrie’s ranking before Part 2 of the written column was posted on February 25. LeBron’s miraculous return to form (thanks to two weeks of R&R in Miami)2 had overshadowed a more compelling subplot: Finally, we saw all the ways Kyrie could affect a winning team.

Ridiculous first step. Excellent shooting. Semi-freakociousness on fast breaks. A world-class ability to finish in traffic from any and every angle. It’s all there. When you project him as a Wealthy Man’s Tony Parker, Kyrie’s basketball ceiling makes more sense: He’s a ridiculously efficient scorer who needs another creator (or a fluidly brilliant offensive system) to get everyone else involved.

Could LeBron be that creator for him? No question. It’s already happening. Even if Kyrie will never have the Conley Clock in his head (see Part 2), it doesn’t matter if he’s playing with the right guys. I was dead wrong about Kyrie’s potential. But hey — at least I got to the right place with it. Just took awhile.

Which brings me to Tangent No. 1 …

When Jalen Rose and I taped The Grantland Basketball Hour with Kobelast month, we were killing time during one of the commercial breaks and I asked Kobe if he had any “new” favorite players. You know how great chefs always identify the other up-and-coming great chefs?

Kobe fancies himself as that guy for the NBA alpha dog/badass/overcompetitive mf’er corner. Knows it when he sees it. Even brags about being able to see it.

He sniffed it out early with Westbrook (his favorite current star) in 2012 and — to my surprise — he’s sniffing it with Kyrie now and said as much. Heloves Kyrie. So that was a game changer for me. When Chef Kobe blessed Chef Kyrie, I knew it was time to wipe my Kyrie Opinion Hard Drive and start over.
--end quote--

Bballguy4 said:
You can't be considered clutch and be god awful at winning
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Clutch is a stat, not a feeling.. Kyrie is one of the most clutch players to have played in the last 15 years. He's not called Mr. 4th Quarter just for shits and giggles.

Bballguy4 said:
The last 3 years in Miami, Heat fans were mostly annoyed with Wade.
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With Wade's health... Not with "Wade."

Bballguy4 said:
Lebron was the undisputed king and noone thought they were equally important to those titles.
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Nonsense. James wouldn't even have been in Miami if not for Wade. But whatever, think what you want bro.
 
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All4One1ForAll said:
Come playoff time, it'll be obvious who's the most important guy on this team and you can talk to me then.
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I'm good man... I said everything that needed to be said. Your liking of the random post that clearly bashes Kyrie and calls him overrated shows me where you stand.
 
LeBron is still a far more impactfull player than Kyrie. As impressive as Kyrie's 55 point game in the win .vs. Portland was, he simply doesn't understand how to leverage his teammates to get them involved and win easier at this point in his career.

We are still a better defensive team when Irving is off-the-floor, and as a team our NET on-court offensive-defensive rating is +8.3 with Irving, but +16.0 with James.

The only thing which makes this even debatable has been James' decline this season - due to mileage, health, diet, "chill mode", or HGH testing ... but the team numbers aren't fooled by his decline in box score stats ... they still see what his presence on the floor is doing.
 
gourimoko said:
I'm good man... I said everything that needed to be said. Your liking of the random post that clearly bashes Kyrie and calls him overrated shows me where you stand.
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What? I don't think Kyrie's overrated at all. I've clearly said multiple times that Kyrie is a top 10 player in the league. Just because I think that trying to say he's as important to this team as the best player in basketball doesn't mean I'm saying Kyrie sucks or that Kyrie is overrated. That's a very childish takeaway. It's not a black and white viewpoint here where if he's not as good as Lebron, I must be saying he's overrated.

You know who's underrating a player on this team? You. You don't seem to realize how important to this team and how good Lebron James actually is. But like I said. I'll wait until the playoffs to carry on this discussion with you.
 
Jon said:
LeBron is still a far more impactfull player than Kyrie. As impressive as Kyrie's 55 point game in the win .vs. Portland was, he simply doesn't understand how to leverage his teammates to get them involved and win easier at this point in his career.

We are still a better defensive team when Irving is off-the-floor, and as a team our NET on-court offensive-defensive rating is +8.3 with Irving, but +16.0 with James.

The only thing which makes this even debatable has been James' decline this season - due to mileage, health, diet, "chill mode", or HGH testing ... but the team numbers aren't fooled by his decline in box score stats ... they still see what his presence on the floor is doing.
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Great post. Agree completely.
 
LeBron is not "far" more impactful than Kyrie. That's hyperbole and not at all surprising that the guy who once argued (extensively so) that Kyrie was a 'rich man's boobie gibson' would diminish him in that way. So, no, not a great post. It's a post that has a point that's worth exploring but exaggerated for effect.
 
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brownsbuck6 said:
LeBron is not "FAR" more impactful than Kyrie. That's hyperbole and not at all surprising that the guy who once argued (extensively so) that Kyrie was a 'rich man's boobie gibson' would diminish him in that way. So, no, not a great post. It's a post that has a point that's worth exploring but exaggerated for effect.
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Wrong. Dead wrong. Kyrie is amazing, but he cannot carry a team. LeBron can. That difference separates the two players by a FAR margin.
 
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