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Kyrie Irving

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Kyrie is a 23 year old who has never been to the playoffs in his life. Lebron is a 30 year old experienced veteran with 4 MVPs, 2 championships, and a good case for Top 3 of all time. Ask Kyrie who the leader is and he would tell you it's Lebron. Lebron is the guy who motivates and powers this team. Kyrie is a great Robin, but Lebron is the Batman.
Well lebron has no case at top 3 but that's besides the point.

Great talent, just not a leader. You make my point for really. All logic says that lebron should be the leader, and he was at the beginning. The change came when kyrie took over. There's a reason why he left for Miami. These are just how things are.
 
Well lebron has no case at top 3 but that's besides the point.

Great talent, just not a leader. You make my point for really. All logic says that lebron should be the leader, and he was at the beginning. The change came when kyrie took over. There's a reason why he left for Miami. These are just how things are.
I agree he has no case right now, but he definitely will be in contention when he hangs it up. Especially with more rings.

lebron-james-michael-jordan-career-graphic.jpg


But without getting too sidetracked, LeBron is the leader of this team. He has stepped back lately as far as a short stretch of dominating the ball, and it seems Kyrie has taken more end of half/game shots lately, but that doesn't mean LeBron isn't the leader.

Kendrick Perkins said he came to the Cavs for a chance to play with LeBron. James Jones, Mike Miller, Shawn Marion. These are guys who came to the Cavaliers to play with LeBron. JR Smith talks about how much he loves playing with LeBron. Now that isn't to say they don't all love playing with Kyrie and respect the hell out of him, but this is LeBron's team.
 
Kyrie is a 23 year old who has never been to the playoffs in his life. Lebron is a 30 year old experienced veteran with 4 MVPs, 2 championships, and a good case for Top 3 of all time. Ask Kyrie who the leader is and he would tell you it's Lebron. Lebron is the guy who motivates and powers this team. Kyrie is a great Robin, but Lebron is the Batman.

Kyrie is no Robin.

Guy is equally as important to this team's success as LeBron James is on the court, some games even more so. He's not just some sidekick, he's often our primary option.

It's like saying Wade was LeBron's Robin. That'd be ridiculous.
 
Kyrie is no Robin.

Guy is equally as important to this team's success as LeBron James is on the court, some games even more so. He's not just some sidekick, he's often our primary option.

It's like saying Wade was LeBron's Robin. That'd be ridiculous.
You're not understanding the argument. It's "who is the leader" on this team, not "who is the most important player."

You want to argue who's more important to this team's success though? Fine I'll go there. Lebron is more important. And it's not even close. This isn't a matter of opinion. It's a fact and I don't even know how you can even argue it. I'm not saying Kyrie is "some sidekick" (nice use of the word "some" to try and make it seem like I was using it in a negative connotation"). He's maybe the best secondary option in basketball and it's not something he should be ashamed of because he has Lebron Raymone James on the team.

Good God, do you people realize how good Lebron is? He can make any team a playoff team. Did you see how he carried that awful '07 team to the Finals? He averages more points on the same efficiency, more assists, more rebiunds, and plays better defense than Kyrie. He completely turned this team around when he came back from his vacation.

Yes there are some games when Kyrie is our primary option. So what? One, Kyrie is a great scorer and that's where he's close to Lebron. But Lebron is our primary option most of the time and he's a lot better in virtually every other facet of the game than Kyrie.

I mean seriously this is no disrespect to Kyrie. It's like you saying Pippen was just as important as Jordan. It's blasphemy. Lebron could go down as a Top 2 player of all time. Maybe even the best. Saying things like "Kyrie is just as important to this team as Lebron" just makes me shake my head in disbelief because while Kyrie is a fantastic young player, I just can't even comprehend how one could possibly even argue that he's as important to this team's success as Lebron.

And back on the point pn argument, Lebron is the leader of this team, as well, because he's the one who has led a team to 2 championships before. Not Kyrie.
 
He was the "leader". Kyrie has taken over and the improvement is obvious.
This is ridiculous, LeBron is still the leader and alpha dog on our team. The team's improvement was obvious when he seized control as the de facto point guard, Kyrie has flourished as our secondary ball handler.

It's a role he was born to play; attacking scrambled defenses already stretched thin from guarding our other two stars.
 
You're not understanding the argument. It's "who is the leader" on this team, not "who is the most important player."

I'm not in the argument, I just think the comparison to Batman and Robin is silly. This isn't a Batman and Robin situation, as my post said.

You want to argue who's more important to this team's success though? Fine I'll go there. Lebron is more important. And it's not even close. This isn't a matter of opinion. It's a fact and I don't even know how you can even argue it.

Yawn... posts that start like this are usually not worth responding to, but it's already been laid out in the Kyrie thread.

I personally don't care to argue the point, but I'll say this.

Kyrie is more important to this team long-term, and I think everyone agrees there, right? He is the future of the franchise.

When asked who we should have take the last shot, most argue Kyrie should.

Kyrie has taken almost as many field goals (they are separated by 3% which is statistically insignificant), their TS% are equivalent, and while LeBron has 466 assists on the season as the primary ball-handler, Kyrie still has 361 playing off-the ball.

Again, to say that "it isn't even close," and there "is no argument" is hyperbole and nonsense.

This team goes nowhere without Kyrie -- nowhere. Our offense would literally shut down.

You couldn't make this argument for any other player but LeBron James.

So again, they are of equal importance to this team's success. While LeBron is the better player and is likely more important in the short-term, every year that progresses, Kyrie rapidly becomes more important.

I'm not saying Kyrie is "some sidekick" (nice use of the word "some" to try and make it seem like I was using it in a negative connotation"). He's maybe the best secondary option in basketball and it's not something he should be ashamed of because he has Lebron Raymone James on the team.

Again, you're wrong here.

He's not a "second option." He's often our primary option. The numbers do not support your conclusion -- period.

They are separated by 30 field goal attempts over 75 games on the season. Kyrie has scored 93% as many points as LeBron has playing predominantly off-the-ball when the two share the floor (which is the majority of the time).

My argument has nothing to do with who the leader of the team is; I think that is LeBron James -- Kyrie Irving doesn't want that mantle and I think even he would tell you this.

Good God, do you people realize how good Lebron is? He can make any team a playoff team. Did you see how he carried that awful '07 team to the Finals?

No one is arguing about how good LeBron is, remember?

He averages more points on the same efficiency,

Right, exactly, "on the same efficiency."

Umm. You realize that what that means? James averaging more points at the same rate means he takes more shots.

James takes 2.1 more shots per game netting him 3.8 more points per game. Since they have the same efficiency, you could effectively argue they are equivalent scorers.

more assists,

LeBron James : 7.2 apg/36 w/ 4.0 TOV/36 (among worst in NBA)
LBJ Ast/TOV ratio : 1.8/36m -- errr...

Kyrie Irving (playing off-the-ball): 5.0 apg/36 w/2.4 TOV/36 (Kyrie has always average low turnovers)
Kyrie Ast/TOV ratio : 2.08/36m

Jeff Teague : 2.48 Ast/TOV ratio (For comparison, the 0.28 difference between Irving and James is significant)

more rebiunds,

Kyrie Irving ORB: 0.7/game
LeBron JAmes ORG: 0.7/game

Yep, James has more defensive rebounds though.. you got him there.. lol..

Anyway, Kyrie has 102 steals, James 101, Kyrie shoots 86.3% from the FT line, LBJ 71.7%.

Kyrie is the better 3pt shooter and it's not even close.
He's the better ball handler, the better finisher, and he's more clutch both this season and historically.

And he's got the better Net Rtg (Ortg-Dtrg); Kyrie +8 vs James +7.

and plays better defense than Kyrie.

Does he?

So... is that when in or out of chill mode?

I think both players have had substantial defensive lapses this season; but I think both can be lockdown defenders when zoned in.

LeBron is historically the better defender; when he tries.

But even last year, he seemed to stop caring about defense on Miami and that was the reason many commentators cited he was passed up in favor of Kevin Durant for MVP.

Taking the first half of the season off, to me, does not bode well for LeBron James' case as being a more zoned in player than Kyrie.

He completely turned this team around when he came back from his vacation.

Absolutely no doubt about that, he's the best player in the NBA. Not arguing he isn't.

Just trying to point out that Kyrie is no "robin," akin to a Mo Williams or antique Shaq.

Yes there are some games when Kyrie is our primary option. So what? One, Kyrie is a great scorer and that's where he's close to Lebron. But Lebron is our primary option most of the time

They are roughly equivalent, separated by less than two games of average FGA. Separated by 114 pts on the entire season....

By the end of the regular season, Kyrie will likely end up with nearly equal points as LeBron.

Next season, if these two players continue on their current trend lines, Kyrie will likely have more points scored than LeBron James.

and he's a lot better in virtually every other facet of the game than Kyrie.

According to LeBron James, Kyrie Irving is the best ball-handler and finisher in the NBA that he has ever seen play the game.

According to LeBron James, Kyrie has the potential to be the best PG in the NBA, and this view is shared by many including David Blatt.

Not sure how you could say LeBron James simply eclipses Kyrie Irving "in virtually every other facet of of the game," unless again, your post is just hyperbole and not really based in fact.

I mean seriously this is no disrespect to Kyrie.

Right...

It's like you saying Pippen was just as important as Jordan.

Ironic.

Your argument is predicated on James being the better defender, facilitator, rebounder, etc over Irving.

Other than rebounding where the two were virtually equivalent, defense and facilitation were things Pippen was better than Jordan at, FYI...

But to the point of Kyrie Irving and a 30-year old LeBron James, the gulf between these two players is nowhere near that of Pippen and Jordan. And 30-year old LeBron is no fucking Michael Jordan.

Pippen never, ever scored at the same efficiency, or the same amount of points as Michael Jordan.

It was always, 100% clear, who was the primary option on that team.

At that's my point.

When looking at Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen; there was no ambiguity. We have a thread here where the majority of those asked preferred (by a large margin) Kyrie to take the last shot, to have the ball end up in his hands at the end of games.

This isn't a Jordan/Pippen situation, and that's the point.

This is much more like a 2010-11 James/Wade tag-team offense.

Maybe that will change next year; hopefully it will. But moving forward, James is getting older, and Kyrie isn't even close to entering his prime, yet he's still getting better every year.

It's blasphemy.

Settle down.

Lebron could go down as a Top 2 player of all time. Maybe even the best.

You're out of your mind...

If you really think LeBron James has a chance to best Jordan, then there is no point in discussing this.

Saying things like "Kyrie is just as important to this team as Lebron" just makes me shake my head in disbelief because while Kyrie is a fantastic young player, I just can't even comprehend how one could possibly even argue that he's as important to this team's success as Lebron.

That's good for you...

And back on the point pn argument,

Have fun with that, I could care less about this argument.

My only point is that Kyrie is no sidekick. That's all.

LeBron is and will be the leader of the Cavaliers due to his age, maturity, and desire to lead. Kyrie has always shied away from that responsibility and was always too young and immature. That'll change in time, and we're already seeing some of that this year.

Irving is the future of the franchise, but James is our best player right now - but not by as much as you make it out to be (i.e. that James is better than Irving in "virtually all other aspects of the game", other than scoring)

Lebron is the leader of this team, as well, because he's the one who has led a team to 2 championships before. Not Kyrie.

You mean, who led the Miami Heat to 2 championships?

It's debatable who was the leader of that team, but if you ask Heat fans they'll tell you Dwyane Wade was at least an equal to LeBron in the leadership department.

However, many Heat fans would just say Wade was the leader and James was his point man. They would and do point to the same reasons of team building as you do here to support Wade's role. Wade was always considered "the spiritual leader" of the Miami Heat, and Riley and Spo went to Wade first, before anyone else.

Wade was often the go-between for ownership, management, and coaching, in order to get LeBron James onboard. I don't think your argument really takes any of this into account.

But something tells me your mind is pretty made up on this, so there's little point in discussing it further.
 
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This is ridiculous, LeBron is still the leader and alpha dog on our team. The team's improvement was obvious when he seized control as the de facto point guard, Kyrie has flourished as our secondary ball handler.

It's a role he was born to play; attacking scrambled defenses already stretched thin from guarding our other two stars.
Let's agree to disagree.
 
I'm not in the argument, I just think the comparison to Batman and Robin is silly. This isn't a Batman and Robin situation, as my post said.



Yawn... posts that start like this are usually not worth responding to, but it's already been laid out in the Kyrie thread.

I personally don't care to argue the point, but I'll say this.

Kyrie is more important to this team long-term, and I think everyone agrees there, right? He is the future of the franchise.

When asked who we should have take the last shot, most argue Kyrie should.

Kyrie has taken almost as many field goals (they are separated by 3% which is statistically insignificant), their TS% are equivalent, and while LeBron has 466 assists on the season as the primary ball-handler, Kyrie still has 361 playing off-the ball.

Again, to say that "it isn't even close," and there "is no argument" is hyperbole and nonsense.

This team goes nowhere without Kyrie -- nowhere. Our offense would literally shut down.

You couldn't make this argument for any other player but LeBron James.

So again, they are of equal importance to this team's success. While LeBron is the better player and is likely more important in the short-term, every year that progresses, Kyrie rapidly becomes more important.



Again, you're wrong here.

He's not a "second option." He's often our primary option. The numbers do not support your conclusion -- period.

They are separated by 30 field goal attempts over 75 games on the season. Kyrie has scored 93% as many points as LeBron has playing predominantly off-the-ball when the two share the floor (which is the majority of the time).

My argument has nothing to do with who the leader of the team is; I think that is LeBron James -- Kyrie Irving doesn't want that mantle and I think even he would tell you this.



No one is arguing about how good LeBron is, remember?



Right, exactly, "on the same efficiency."

Umm. You realize that what that means? James averaging more points at the same rate means he takes more shots.

James takes 2.1 more shots per game netting him 3.8 more points per game. Since they have the same efficiency, you could effectively argue they are equivalent scorers.



LeBron James : 7.2 apg/36 w/ 4.0 TOV/36 (among worst in NBA)
LBJ Ast/TOV ratio : 1.8/36m -- errr...

Kyrie Irving (playing off-the-ball): 5.0 apg/36 w/2.4 TOV/36 (Kyrie has always average low turnovers)
Kyrie Ast/TOV ratio : 2.08/36m

Jeff Teague : 2.48 Ast/TOV ratio (For comparison, the 0.28 difference between Irving and James is significant)



Kyrie Irving ORB: 0.7/game
LeBron JAmes ORG: 0.7/game

Yep, James has more defensive rebounds though.. you got him there.. lol..

Anyway, Kyrie has 102 steals, James 101, Kyrie shoots 86.3% from the FT line, LBJ 71.7%.

Kyrie is the better 3pt shooter and it's not even close.
He's the better ball handler, the better finisher, and he's more clutch both this season and historically.

And he's got the better Net Rtg (Ortg-Dtrg); Kyrie +8 vs James +7.



Does he?

So... is that when in or out of chill mode?

I think both players have had substantial defensive lapses this season; but I think both can be lockdown defenders when zoned in.

LeBron is historically the better defender; when he tries.

But even last year, he seemed to stop caring about defense on Miami and that was the reason many commentators cited he was passed up in favor of Kevin Durant for MVP.

Taking the first half of the season off, to me, does not bode well for LeBron James' case as being a more zoned in player than Kyrie.



Absolutely no doubt about that, he's the best player in the NBA. Not arguing he isn't.

Just trying to point out that Kyrie is no "robin," akin to a Mo Williams or antique Shaq.



They are roughly equivalent, separated by less than two games of average FGA. Separated by 114 pts on the entire season....

By the end of the regular season, Kyrie will likely end up with nearly equal points as LeBron.

Next season, if these two players continue on their current trend lines, Kyrie will likely have more points scored than LeBron James.



According to LeBron James, Kyrie Irving is the best ball-handler and finisher in the NBA that he has ever seen play the game.

According to LeBron James, Kyrie has the potential to be the best PG in the NBA, and this view is shared by many including David Blatt.

Not sure how you could say LeBron James simply eclipses Kyrie Irving "in virtually every other facet of of the game," unless again, your post is just hyperbole and not really based in fact.



Right...



Ironic.

Your argument is predicated on James being the better defender, facilitator, rebounder, etc over Irving.

Other than rebounding where the two were virtually equivalent, defense and facilitation were things Pippen was better than Jordan at, FYI...

But to the point of Kyrie Irving and a 30-year old LeBron James, the gulf between these two players is nowhere near that of Pippen and Jordan. And 30-year old LeBron is no fucking Michael Jordan.

Pippen never, ever scored at the same efficiency, or the same amount of points as Michael Jordan.

It was always, 100% clear, who was the primary option on that team.

At that's my point.

When looking at Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen; there was no ambiguity. We have a thread here where the majority of those asked preferred (by a large margin) Kyrie to take the last shot, to have the ball end up in his hands at the end of games.

This isn't a Jordan/Pippen situation, and that's the point.

This is much more like a 2010-11 James/Wade tag-team offense.

Maybe that will change next year; hopefully it will. But moving forward, James is getting older, and Kyrie isn't even close to entering his prime, yet he's still getting better every year.



Settle down.



You're out of your mind...

If you really think LeBron James has a chance to best Jordan, then there is no point in discussing this.



That's good for you...



Have fun with that, I could care less about this argument.

My only point is that Kyrie is no sidekick. That's all.

LeBron is and will be the leader of the Cavaliers due to his age, maturity, and desire to lead. Kyrie has always shied away from that responsibility and was always too young and immature. That'll change in time, and we're already seeing some of that this year.

Irving is the future of the franchise, but James is our best player right now - but not by as much as you make it out to be (i.e. that James is better than Irving in "virtually all other aspects of the game", other than scoring)



You mean, who led the Miami Heat to 2 championships?

It's debatable who was the leader of that team, but if you ask Heat fans they'll tell you Dwyane Wade was at least an equal to LeBron in the leadership department.

However, many Heat fans would just say Wade was the leader and James was his point man. They would and do point to the same reasons of team building as you do here to support Wade's role. Wade was always considered "the spiritual leader" of the Miami Heat, and Riley and Spo went to Wade first, before anyone else.

Wade was often the go-between for ownership, management, and coaching, in order to get LeBron James onboard. I don't think your argument really takes any of this into account.

But something tells me your mind is pretty made up on this, so there's little point in discussing it further.
There are so many things I want to say right now, but I really don't want to derail this thread. You saying there's absolutely no way Lebron could go down as a better player than Jordan just shows me that you're really not giving Lebron proper respect for the player he is and what he's accomplished so far in his career.

I just want to say that "30 year old Lebron" is still prime Lebron so don't act like he's a shell of what he used to be and not even comparable to Jordan. Kyrie is a fantastic young player and eventually he'll take the reigns of this franchise from Lebron but he's right now he's not on Lebron's level (and I would make a bet he'll never be as good as Lebron is right now) and if you can't see that right from the beginning, then there's no point in trying to convince you. Furthermore, Pippen is a top 50 player of all time, so don't act like the comparison between the Jordan-Pippen situation and Lebron-Kyrie situation isn't valid. In both examples, Jordan and Lebron respectively are the clear primary options, better players, and leaders of the team. And there are few basketball fans who would argue otherwise.

FYI: most of the statistics you pulled are very misleading considering you used season totals when Lebron has played 6 less games. Lebron takes 2 more shots than Kyrie and almost 3 free throws more than Kyrie per game. His USG rate is much higher than Kyrie's. Lebron scores more than Kyrie on the same efficiency (you don't seem to understand that generally more shot attempts result in a lower efficiency). Lebron is our primary option. He's a better facilitator than Kyrie, a better defender (every advanced defensive metric as well as the eye test would support me in this) and a better rebounder (yes defensive rebounds count in case you didn't know). He's the leader and the primary option in this team. I meant "Robin" as no offense towards Kyrie. I was using it to say that he's second in command to Lebron, who is the clear leader of this time. Besides, that was used in an argument discussing who the leader of this team was - not who the primary option is and who the sidekick is.
 
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There are so many things I want to say right now, but I really don't want to derail this thread. You saying there's absolutely no way Lebron could go down as a better player than Jordan just shows me that you're really not giving Lebron proper respect for the player he is and what he's accomplished so far in his career. I just want to say that "30 year old Lebron" is still prime Lebron so don't act like he's a shell of what he used to be and not even comparable to Jordan.

I didn't say he wasn't comparable to Jordan, plenty of players are "comparable." But I don't think he has a realistic chance to eclipse Jordan as the GOAT. I think that's fantasy. And frankly, Jordan was the better basketball player.

I think the vast majority of players, analysts and commentators in the league would tell you the same thing.

There was a point in James career where the possibility existed. James' first three years on the Heat looked like he would have a real shot at it. But too many people are ignoring James' regression from 2012 to today.

He's not the same player, in the same system, or playing at the same level. Those are the hard facts. He needed to continue at that level to have a chance to be considered better than Jordan and that doesn't look like it's going to happen, for better or worse.

But from my standpoint, I respect him a hell of a lot for making the sacrifice to come back to Cleveland when he did, instead of sticking it out in Miami for another year.

Kyrie is a fantastic young player and eventually he'll take the reigns of this franchise from Lebron but he's right now he's not on Lebron's level (and I would make a bet he'll never be as good as Lebron is right now)

I think 30-year old Kyrie has a great shot at being as good as 30-year old LeBron James; at least, he has a chance at having a statistically better season. The same way Steph Curry is having a statistically better season than LeBron is right now.

I do think LBJ is the best player in the league, and I do think he'll go down as Top 3 of all time. But with that said, I think you are drastically underestimating Kyrie Irving.

and if you can't see that right from the beginning, then there's no point in trying to convince you.

But that wasn't what you were trying to convince anyone of is it?

You quoted my very simple, small, 5 sentence post that said Kyrie is no Robin, he is no sidekick, and he is no "second option."

I never said he was or will be better than LeBron James.

p.s.
I asked you this before, and I don't think you answered it; but, how old are you? For some reason I think you're not old enough to have even watched Jordan play... is that right? I think that would explain why to you, LeBron can somehow top him.

I've never felt James was even close to Jordan, but that's probably because I remember Jordan.
 
I'm not in the argument, I just think the comparison to Batman and Robin is silly. This isn't a Batman and Robin situation, as my post said.



Yawn... posts that start like this are usually not worth responding to, but it's already been laid out in the Kyrie thread.

I personally don't care to argue the point, but I'll say this.

Kyrie is more important to this team long-term, and I think everyone agrees there, right? He is the future of the franchise.

When asked who we should have take the last shot, most argue Kyrie should.

Kyrie has taken almost as many field goals (they are separated by 3% which is statistically insignificant), their TS% are equivalent, and while LeBron has 466 assists on the season as the primary ball-handler, Kyrie still has 361 playing off-the ball.

Again, to say that "it isn't even close," and there "is no argument" is hyperbole and nonsense.

This team goes nowhere without Kyrie -- nowhere. Our offense would literally shut down.

Sorry but it aint working....Kyrie coming into this season was awful from a winning POV

http://kingjamesgospel.com/2014/10/24/kyrie-irving-considered-one-overrated-players/



The Cleveland Cavaliers season is now less than a week away. The Season of Huh (Waiting for Next Year has a book in process about last season) is now over. The Season of Wow is almost upon us. The Cavs have put together an amazing roster with Kyrie Irving, LeBron James, Kevin Love, Dion Waiters, Anderson Varejao, Tristan Thompson, Shawn Marion and many others.

Yet there are still some who doubt the Cavs, and Irving and Love specifically. Those two have put up good numbers on losing teams that have never made the playoffs and are now expected to be a part of a championship level team. Doubters are to be expected.

Yet today we get from ESPN (Insider, Costs $) that Kyrie Irving is overrated. The article is about what player is most overrated, starting off with Kobe Bryant. Shortly after Chad Ford chimes in on two players he thinks are highly overrated, including Irving:

So I think James Harden is a little overrated. I don’t think he makes an effort on the defensive end, and I think basketball is played on both ends of the court. And I’ll put Kyrie Irving in that group; Irving ranked 35th among point guards in real plus-minus last season. Thirty-fifth. The only point guard who was worse than Kyrie Irving last season was José Calderon. And I think if we’re talking about the Cavs being a championship contender team, their point guard is going to have to play some defense. Obviously those are two dynamic offensive players, and when you look at their PER scores and other metrics, they look great, and we know they can put the ball in the basket.

But I’m not ready to anoint Harden or Irving as superstars until they make a passable effort on the defensive end. They don’t have to be superstars defensively, but I don’t even think there’s a passable effort with those two players at the moment.

That is a real shot at Irving, as Harden is general considered the worst defender in terms of effort in the league. Real plus-minus takes a ton of things into account and, while not a perfect metric (it doesn’t exist), should be given some weight in this discussion.

Irving’s ability on the offensive end is without question. The basketball seems to be an extension of his body when he is dribbling it, he can finish in traffic and he can shoot from anywhere. He will need to improve his playmaking for teammates, but this is the first season he has had enough teammates who can finish for him.

Yet even with all of that skill, as well as stats to go with it, Irving was still the second worst ranked point guard in real plus-minus. That means his defense was so bad, according to that metric, that it didn’t just pull him down to average but all the way down to terrible.

Irving ranked 35th among point guards in real plus-minus last season. Thirty-fifth. The only point guard who was worse than Kyrie Irving last season was José Calderon.
The team he was playing with the last few seasons could have played a huge role in his decision to give far less effort on defense. Outside of the inefficient play of Dion Waiters and the scrappy baskets for Anderson Varejao and Tristan Thompson, Irving had no one to help shoulder the offensive load. He seems to have chosen to save himself for that end of the floor. Players only have so much energy to expend.

Yet so far in the off-season, Irving has seen to commit himself more to the defensive side of the ball. In the FIBA World Cup he was active and engaged on both ends of the floor. He still produced offensive numbers but had players around him he could count on to score.

So far in the pre-season he has had his moments of effort. He has also seemed to take his cues from James, taking plays off on defense in meaningless games. For James that is okay, he has shown a history of effort. For Irving, he has to retrain himself defensively and get good habits established before taking nights off.

More from King James Gospel (formerly Right Down Euclid)
Is Irving overrated? Possibly, especially based on the real plus-minus metric that gives a ton of value to defense. It seems Chad Ford also values defense greater than some of his cohorts who look at players like Dwight Howard, Roy Hibbert, Greg Monroe and Rajon Rondo as overrated.

Thankfully Irving is now setup to prove Ford, and others, wrong. He won’t have the excuse that he doesn’t have anyone to shoulder some of the offensive load, although LeBron James seems to want him to be the man on that end of the floor (a later article) and James is likely to push him to defend well.

What do you think of Ford’s take on Irving as overrated?


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1939155-is-kyrie-irving-the-most-overrated-superstar-in-the-nba



Between a jaw-dropping highlight reel, an overstuffed stat sheet and an undeniably appealing commercial campaign, Cleveland Cavaliers point guard Kyrie Irving looks and acts the NBA superstar part.

The hoops world is clearly buying his work, as the third-year guard was recently selected as an Eastern Conference All-Star starter.

In a league run by superstars, Irving has established himself with the ruling class—despite having some glaring holes in his resume.

The 21-year-old is charismatic, immensely talented and unbelievably exciting to watch. He's also the NBA's most overrated superstar, and he's facing an uphill battle in shedding that label.



Not a Leader

When the Cavs won the draft lottery in 2011, they seemed to be staring at a jackpot prize.

Just one year removed from LeBron James' infamous exit, Cleveland needed more than talent. It had to find a franchise cornerstone, the type of player who could carry his team and ignite a city.

Irving's track record said he was the perfect man for the job. A natural point guard packing a mighty scoring punch while always keeping a keen eye out for his teammates, he was a no-brainer (and, potentially, a game-changer) for the Cavs.

Some two-plus years into his Cleveland stay, though, the franchise is still waiting for him to have a superstar impact. In fact, this group looks strikingly similar to the 19-win outfit he was supposed to save:

Irving himself doesn't look much different than the player who captured Rookie of the Year honors two seasons ago. If he's made any strides in his game since, he's given them back in other areas.

Lateral Movement: No Real Improvements on the Stat Sheet
Season MPG PPG APG FG% 3P% PER
2011-12 30.5 18.5 5.4 46.9 39.9 21.4
2012-13 34.7 22.5 5.9 45.2 39.1 21.4
2013-14 35.1 21.5 6.2 42.7 36.7 20.0
Basketball-Reference.com

Yet individual production is supposed to be Irving's calling card. His team hasn't gotten any better since his arrival, so his superstar ascent has been based solely largely on his solo stat sheets.

That's a flawed approach for a few different reasons.

First, he shouldn't be turning many heads off his numbers alone. They're just not good enough to warrant his lofty standing among the fans.

"Last season, I would've told you Irving was a top four or five point guard," Fox Sports Ohio's Sam The Bullshit Whisperer wrote. "This year, I'm not so sure -- and [Derrick] Rose and the Celtics' Rajon Rondo have been injured, so they're not even in the discussion."

hi-res-461716679-kyrie-irving-of-the-cleveland-cavaliers-drives-against_crop_exact.jpg
Melissa Majchrzak/Getty Images
What's worse is that The Bullshit Whisperer was actually trying to make the point that Irving isn't overrated—by leaving Irving out of the top five point guards, ranks that don't include Rajon Rondo or Derrick Rose, either.

That's how far Irving's stock has slipped, even if fans still think they're seeing the same returns.

Beyond his own struggles, though, there's a problem with celebrating a player who can't even make his team respectable. The fact his position is the easiest to elevate teammates from complicates an already erroneous measure.

"At some point, winning has to matter more than All-Star games, 3-point shootouts and even USA Basketball," Jason Lloyd of the Akron Beacon Journal wrote. "At some point, if Irving wants to be considered the best in the league, he has to win."

If the Cavs (16-28) can't win in this Eastern Conference, they may never win again. At least, not as long as their superstar continues neglecting one end of the floor.



One-Way Play

Cavs coach Mike Brown was supposed to fix this issue.

During his first stint in Cleveland, the Cavs posted a top-15 defensive rating in each of his five seasons at the helm. Three of those seasons, they landed inside the top 10 and twice forced their way into the top four.

Brown's offense was fairly vanilla, but Irving's offensive creativity made it worth the risk. Provided, of course, that the coach could get his star point guard to play both ends of the floor.

Well, Irving has suited up 41 times for Brown. And he looks as lost as he's ever been on defense:

Even in this age of advanced statistics, reliable defensive metrics remain largely elusive. The ones we do have at our disposal, though, don't shed any favorable light on Irving.

On the season, he's been the difference between Cleveland having a dominant defense and an overly porous one.

With Irving on the floor, the Cavs have allowed 106.3 points per 100 possessions. Stretched out across the season, that would be the league's fifth-worst defensive rating. When Irving takes a seat, that number drops all the way to 99.5. Only the Indiana Pacers, Chicago Bulls and Oklahoma City Thunder have a better defensive rating than the Irving-less Cavs.

hi-res-8164690_crop_exact.jpg
David Richard-USA TODAY Sports
Now, on/off splits can be skewed by the other players on the floor. But with players like C.J. Miles and Anderson Varejao, both of whom share the starting lineup with Irving, the Cavs get worse when those two leave the floor.

As for his solo assignments, Irving has been getting cooked. Opposing players are posting an 18.6 player efficiency rating—league average is 15.0—against him on the season, via 82games.com. He's also been hit for 0.90 points per possession defensively, via Synergy Sports (subscription required), nearly the same amount he's posted at the opposite side (0.93).

Granted, not every superstar is a two-way force.

But Irving isn't a potent enough offensive weapon to compensate for lethargic play at the other end.



Will He Ever Reach His Hype?

Irving could do exactly what he's doing now for the rest of his career and many would dub it a resounding success.

As it stands, he has max money headed his way soon. His global brand is already strong and clearly continuing to grow. The basketball world has anointed him as a superstar and treated him as such.

If he wants the style-over-substance career, he wouldn't be the first player to follow that path.

Who do you consider the league's most overrated star?
Kyrie Irving Kevin Love Carmelo Anthony Other (specify in comments) Submit Vote vote to see results
But if he wants something more, if he truly wants to make an impact in this league, he has to change. There are way too many problems being conveniently swept under the rug right now.

As Lloyd said in defense of his critical column, "I just think we’ve reached the point where he has to take accountability for some of this stuff."

The bad losses, the sieve defense, the lack of growth for both himself and his team—these are all serious problems, and ones that need to be solved.

Irving's not the only overhyped star. But he sits as the game's biggest offender.

It's hard to place that label on anyone entrenched in the playoff race given Irving's inability to carry his team even that far. Carmelo Anthony and Kevin Love are similarly on the outside looking in, but their stat sheets (27.2 points and 9.0 rebounds; 24.9 points, 12.9 rebounds and 4.1 assists, respectively) are a level above Irving's.

Irving has the talent to reach the game's premium pedestal, but he has to want it and be willing to work for it.

No matter how hard the hoops world tries, it can't lift him to that ultimate stage on its own.










You mean, who led the Miami Heat to 2 championships?

It's debatable who was the leader of that team, but if you ask Heat fans they'll tell you Dwyane Wade was at least an equal to LeBron in the leadership department.

However, many Heat fans would just say Wade was the leader and James was his point man. They would and do point to the same reasons of team building as you do here to support Wade's role. Wade was always considered "the spiritual leader" of the Miami Heat, and Riley and Spo went to Wade first, before anyone else.

Wade was often the go-between for ownership, management, and coaching, in order to get LeBron James onboard. I don't think your argument really takes any of this into account.

But something tells me your mind is pretty made up on this, so there's little point in discussing it further.

After the 1st season where they were 1a/1b, Wade was clearly the Robin of the two. Miami fans will tell you this. Wade becamee an afterthought in his own home.
 
Sorry but it aint working....Kyrie coming into this season was awful from a winning POV

http://kingjamesgospel.com/2014/10/24/kyrie-irving-considered-one-overrated-players/


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1939155-is-kyrie-irving-the-most-overrated-superstar-in-the-nba


After the 1st season where they were 1a/1b, Wade was clearly the Robin of the two. Miami fans will tell you this. Wade becamee an afterthought in his own home.

Err...

You quoted KingJamesGospel and Bleacher Report, and the articles were titled:

1) "Kyrie Irving Considered One of the Most Overrated Players"

and

2) "Kyrie Irving is the Most Overrated Superstar"

Bro, I lived in Miami when Wade won his first; but something tells me you're not really inclined to discuss if these are your two "sources."

Go to RealGM and ask Miami fans what they think if you don't believe me. Go listen to Windhorst explain how integral Wade was to that team both on and off the floor.
 
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