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Love/Wiggins Trade Revisited

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Mr. Blonde said:
Bron has great pr. I've never disputed that.

That said, basically everyone agrees that's he's a piece of shit. It's not a big deal, he's still a great basketball player.
Click to expand...

Who? Everyone? I don't know why people make such blank statements without anything really to back it up with. Sure, people have made note he doesn't always handle himself the way you'd like him to. He's made mistakes, he's not a perfect person. There have been a variety of opinions of how he behaves. Some good, some not so good.

But scumbag is harsh language to describe him as a person. Especially since he's never broken the law, never been arrested, nor done something truly disgusting that we know of.

He's obviously done some very nice and thoughtful things in regards of charity. Players around the league and his teammates always seem to like him. Seems to be a dedicated and devoted father, and family man.

It's just harsh to be so judgmental over someone we don't know, and has never really committed a heinous act that we know of.

A scumbag, is a former athlete that was just sentenced to life in prison today for a senseless murder.

Whether people like LeBron personally or not is up to them, but he deserves a little better than being called that, I think, don't you?
 
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Let's agree to disagree.

Also Hernandez is a fucking psychopath. He transcends scumbag (which lebron is).
 
Mr. Blonde said:
Let's agree to disagree.

Also Hernandez is a fucking psychopath. He transcends scumbag (which lebron is).
Click to expand...

I was as pissed as anyone when he left how he did.. call him LeQuit, LeTraitor.. but even then never called him a scumbag. And frankly since then, by all accounts, he's progressed as a person. AND I've "met" the guy for five seconds and thought he was pleasant.. there is virtually no one.. not a single person outside of you.. that uses such harsh languange, so "agree to disagree" all you want but your takes are beyond pathetic. You're a keyboard commando who can remain safely anonymous and say just the absolute stupidest shit. No, no one here is going to "agree to disagree" when you continue to troll any conversation about LeBron. Do you fap to all the attention you get with your trolling?
 
We've come to the end of the 2014/15 regular season and we've got all the data on Andrew Wiggins and can look at it in comparison with some other rookie and veteran data now.

MINUTES PER GAME
36.2

Wiggins played the fourth most minutes per game in the NBA this season (behind Jimmy Butler, James Harden and Kyrie Irving). So he had the chance to compile some pretty good per game stats just by virtue of being on the court so much. Also, he played on a poor team that gave him more opportunities to shine than he might have had with a better team that had more healthy talent.

REAL PLUS MINUS (RPM)
-1.25

This means that Wiggins was a net negative for the Wolves when he was on the court this season. And that conclusion is backed up by the following stat as well.

ON OFF COURT
-1.1

The Wolves were better when Wiggins was off the court.

KEVIN LOVE RPM
+3.31

KEVIN LOVE ON OFF COURT
+7.8

The Cavs were better when Love was on the court.


How did Wiggins stack up with other rookies in terms of RPM?

Nurkic +2.79
Mirotic +2.42
Payton +2.24
Smart +2.02
McGary -0.07
Ennis -0.29
Hood -0.51
TJohnson -0.73
Wiggins -1.25

How did Wiggins stack up with other rookies in terms of PER?

Mirotic 17.93
Clarkson 16.94
Noel 15.03
Nurkic 14.84
T Black 14.76
Wiggins 13.85 (22.6% usage rate)

Kevin Love PER this year was 18.8 with a 21.7% usage rate.

The average PER for the NBA is 15.0


Oddsmakers have Wiggins as an overwhelming favorite to win Rookie Of The Year (ROY). Let's assume that he will win the award, and we can then compare him to the last 30 years of other ROY winners. That list can be seen here-

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/roy.html

Comparing Wiggins to the players on that list back to 1984-85, here is what we find.

* Wiggins (13.9) has the second worst PER among the last 30 ROYs. Only Mike Miller (13.2) had a worse PER, and his usage rate (18.5%) was about 4 percentage points lower than Wiggins' was.

* Wiggins (.034) has the second worst WS48 among the last 30 ROYs. Only Michael Carter-Williams (.026) had a lower figure.

* Wiggins (-00.2) is the only person in the last 30 ROYs to have a negative VORP value. VORP is "value over replacement player." A negative number indicates that Wiggins was worse than a replacement level player, similar to how his sub-15.0 PER indicates that his PER is below average for an NBA player.

Kevin Love Rookie PER was 18.3
Kevin Love Rookie WS48 was .124
Kevin Love Rookie VORP was +00.5

Kevin Love 2014/15 PER was 18.8
Kevin Love 2014/15 WS48 was .165
Kevin Love 2014/15 VORP was +2.5


IN CONCLUSION

Wiggins tracks significantly behind Kevin Love's current and rookie stats.

Wiggins was able to build up strong looking per game averages (17-5-2) based upon his heavy minutes per game and his solid usage rate.

Wiggins is not in the top 5 among rookies in either RPM or PER.

Wiggins appears likely to win the 2015 ROY award.

Wiggins compares quite unfavorably to the last 30 ROYs. That list includes these players.

Chuck Person
Mark Jackson
Damon Stoudamire
Mike Miller
Emeka Okafor
Tyreke Evans
Michael Carter-Williams

None of the above players would be characterized as top level superstars I don't think. Yet from an overall perspective in terms of stats, Wiggins appears to be at or below those players' level when they were rookies and Wiggins was a rookie.

In summary, there is little current statistical evidence to suggest that Andrew Wiggins will ever become a superstar in the NBA along the lines of LeBron James, Kyrie Irving or Kevin Love.

Wiggins is an exciting, athletic, talented young player. Certainly he will improve and there's every reason to think he will become a solid, good to very good player in the NBA for the next decade. Perhaps he will become a star.

Would he have helped our team this year? No.

Is he better than Kevin Love? No.

Will he become better than what Kevin Love's ceiling is? There's currently no statistical evidence for that at all.

This is the data. Wiggins is done for the season, and our postseason is about to get underway.
 
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LeShaq said:
We've come to the end of the 2014/15 regular season and we've got all the data on Andrew Wiggins and can look at it in comparison with some other rookie and veteran data now.

MINUTES PER GAME
36.2

Wiggins played the fourth most minutes per game in the NBA this season (behind Jimmy Butler, James Harden and Kyrie Irving). So he had the chance to compile some pretty good per game stats just by virtue of being on the court so much. Also, he played on a poor team that gave him more opportunities to shine than he might have had with a better team that had more healthy talent.

REAL PLUS MINUS (RPM)
-1.25

This means that Wiggins was a net negative for the Wolves when he was on the court this season. And that conclusion is backed up by the following stat as well.

ON OFF COURT
-1.1

The Wolves were better when Wiggins was off the court.

KEVIN LOVE RPM
+3.31

KEVIN LOVE ON OFF COURT
+7.8

The Cavs were better when Love was on the court.


How did Wiggins stack up with other rookies in terms of RPM?

Nurkic +2.79
Mirotic +2.42
Payton +2.24
Smart +2.02
McGary -0.07
Ennis -0.29
Hood -0.51
TJohnson -0.73
Wiggins -1.25

How did Wiggins stack up with other rookies in terms of PER?

Mirotic 17.93
Clarkson 16.94
Noel 15.03
Nurkic 14.84
T Black 14.76
Wiggins 13.85 (22.6% usage rate)

Kevin Love PER this year was 18.8 with a 21.7% usage rate.

The average PER for the NBA is 15.0


Oddsmakers have Wiggins as an overwhelming favorite to win Rookie Of The Year (ROY). Let's assume that he will win the award, and we can then compare him to the last 30 years of other ROY winners. That list can be seen here-

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/roy.html

Comparing Wiggins to the players on that list back to 1984-85, here is what we find.

* Wiggins (13.9) has the second worst PER among the last 30 ROYs. Only Mike Miller (13.2) had a worse PER, and his usage rate (18.5%) was about 4 percentage points lower than Wiggins' was.

* Wiggins (.034) has the second worst WS48 among the last 30 ROYs. Only Michael Carter-Williams (.026) had a lower figure.

* Wiggins (-00.2) is the only person in the last 30 ROYs to have a negative VORP value. VORP is "value over replacement player." A negative number indicates that Wiggins was worse than a replacement level player, similar to how his sub-15.0 PER indicates that his PER is below average for an NBA player.

Kevin Love Rookie PER was 18.3
Kevin Love Rookie WS48 was .124
Kevin Love Rookie VORP was +00.5

Kevin Love 2014/15 PER was 18.8
Kevin Love 2014/15 WS48 was .165
Kevin Love 2014/15 VORP was +2.5


IN CONCLUSION

Wiggins tracks significantly behind Kevin Love's current and rookie stats.

Wiggins was able to build up strong looking per game averages (17-5-2) based upon his heavy minutes per game and his solid usage rate.

Wiggins is not in the top 5 among rookies in either RPM or PER.

Wiggins appears likely to win the 2015 ROY award.

Wiggins compares quite unfavorably to the last 30 ROYs. That list includes these players.

Chuck Person
Mark Jackson
Damon Stoudamire
Mike Miller
Emeka Okafor
Tyreke Evans
Michael Carter-Williams

None of the above players would be characterized as top level superstars I don't think. Yet from an overall perspective in terms of stats, Wiggins appears to be at or below those players' level when they were rookies and Wiggins was a rookie.

In summary, there is little current statistical evidence to suggest that Andrew Wiggins will ever become a superstar in the NBA along the lines of LeBron James, Kyrie Irving or Kevin Love.

Wiggins is an exciting, athletic, talented young player. Certainly he will improve and there's every reason to think he will become a solid, good to very good player in the NBA for the next decade. Perhaps he will become a star.

Would he have helped our team this year? No.

Is he better than Kevin Love? No.

Will he become better than what Kevin Love's ceiling is? There's currently no statistical evidence for that at all.

This is the data. Wiggins is done for the season, and our postseason is about to get underway.
Click to expand...

Very interesting assessment here. Nice work on compiling this. One thing I would say in defense of Wiggins is that he's only 19 and so his upside may be greater than some of the other rookies you looked at. Where he can get to in 3 years is probably a bigger jump than say where Nikola Mirotic could get to, as he's probably closer to a finished product at his age/experience level.

I think the Love trade was a good move for the Cavs, based on the information they had at the time. The trade is also better for this year, as Love is already a good player and Wiggins is still working toward that level of competence. The future is an unknown...
 
“It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future.”
― Yogi Berra
Obviates a good portion of this thread, soon to be moved elsewhere.
 
Paul said:
Very interesting assessment here. Nice work on compiling this. One thing I would say in defense of Wiggins is that he's only 19 and so his upside may be greater than some of the other rookies you looked at. Where he can get to in 3 years is probably a bigger jump than say where Nikola Mirotic could get to, as he's probably closer to a finished product at his age/experience level.

I think the Love trade was a good move for the Cavs, based on the information they had at the time. The trade is also better for this year, as Love is already a good player and Wiggins is still working toward that level of competence. The future is an unknown...
Click to expand...

Wiggins is 20. Birthday was in Feb.
 
Although I'm greedy and wanted both players, Love gave the Cavs what they needed ..another option, plus being a PF who can score , it doesn't clog the paint.
Plus he's a excellent rebounder.

Blatt just needs to use him at the top of the key to run plays through him, to show a different look and get him to get in the paint more.
 
LeShaq said:
We've come to the end of the 2014/15 regular season and we've got all the data on Andrew Wiggins and can look at it in comparison with some other rookie and veteran data now.

MINUTES PER GAME
36.2

Wiggins played the fourth most minutes per game in the NBA this season (behind Jimmy Butler, James Harden and Kyrie Irving). So he had the chance to compile some pretty good per game stats just by virtue of being on the court so much. Also, he played on a poor team that gave him more opportunities to shine than he might have had with a better team that had more healthy talent.

REAL PLUS MINUS (RPM)
-1.25

This means that Wiggins was a net negative for the Wolves when he was on the court this season. And that conclusion is backed up by the following stat as well.

ON OFF COURT
-1.1

The Wolves were better when Wiggins was off the court.

KEVIN LOVE RPM
+3.31

KEVIN LOVE ON OFF COURT
+7.8

The Cavs were better when Love was on the court.


How did Wiggins stack up with other rookies in terms of RPM?

Nurkic +2.79
Mirotic +2.42
Payton +2.24
Smart +2.02
McGary -0.07
Ennis -0.29
Hood -0.51
TJohnson -0.73
Wiggins -1.25

How did Wiggins stack up with other rookies in terms of PER?

Mirotic 17.93
Clarkson 16.94
Noel 15.03
Nurkic 14.84
T Black 14.76
Wiggins 13.85 (22.6% usage rate)

Kevin Love PER this year was 18.8 with a 21.7% usage rate.

The average PER for the NBA is 15.0


Oddsmakers have Wiggins as an overwhelming favorite to win Rookie Of The Year (ROY). Let's assume that he will win the award, and we can then compare him to the last 30 years of other ROY winners. That list can be seen here-

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/roy.html

Comparing Wiggins to the players on that list back to 1984-85, here is what we find.

* Wiggins (13.9) has the second worst PER among the last 30 ROYs. Only Mike Miller (13.2) had a worse PER, and his usage rate (18.5%) was about 4 percentage points lower than Wiggins' was.

* Wiggins (.034) has the second worst WS48 among the last 30 ROYs. Only Michael Carter-Williams (.026) had a lower figure.

* Wiggins (-00.2) is the only person in the last 30 ROYs to have a negative VORP value. VORP is "value over replacement player." A negative number indicates that Wiggins was worse than a replacement level player, similar to how his sub-15.0 PER indicates that his PER is below average for an NBA player.

Kevin Love Rookie PER was 18.3
Kevin Love Rookie WS48 was .124
Kevin Love Rookie VORP was +00.5

Kevin Love 2014/15 PER was 18.8
Kevin Love 2014/15 WS48 was .165
Kevin Love 2014/15 VORP was +2.5


IN CONCLUSION

Wiggins tracks significantly behind Kevin Love's current and rookie stats.

Wiggins was able to build up strong looking per game averages (17-5-2) based upon his heavy minutes per game and his solid usage rate.

Wiggins is not in the top 5 among rookies in either RPM or PER.

Wiggins appears likely to win the 2015 ROY award.

Wiggins compares quite unfavorably to the last 30 ROYs. That list includes these players.

Chuck Person
Mark Jackson
Damon Stoudamire
Mike Miller
Emeka Okafor
Tyreke Evans
Michael Carter-Williams

None of the above players would be characterized as top level superstars I don't think. Yet from an overall perspective in terms of stats, Wiggins appears to be at or below those players' level when they were rookies and Wiggins was a rookie.

In summary, there is little current statistical evidence to suggest that Andrew Wiggins will ever become a superstar in the NBA along the lines of LeBron James, Kyrie Irving or Kevin Love.

Wiggins is an exciting, athletic, talented young player. Certainly he will improve and there's every reason to think he will become a solid, good to very good player in the NBA for the next decade. Perhaps he will become a star.

Would he have helped our team this year? No.

Is he better than Kevin Love? No.

Will he become better than what Kevin Love's ceiling is? There's currently no statistical evidence for that at all.

This is the data. Wiggins is done for the season, and our postseason is about to get underway.
Click to expand...

If you don't see a star when you watch wiggins then there's something wrong there.
 
randymoss1881 said:
If you don't see a star when you watch wiggins then there's something wrong there.
Click to expand...

I see a star, but I think superstar is still premature. That's not a knock on Wiggins, I like him, he's looking like the best player from this draft thus far. I still can't discount Parker just yet, and who knows about Embiid yet.

I have no idea who wins this trade, it's too premature. Was it the correct trade to make? Yes, because with all due respect to Wiggins, I am not sure we'd be capable of winning a title if he was here, instead of Love, right now.

But, I do pause a bit, because I have no idea if something is seriously physically wrong with Kevin Love. If his back issues are going to be of concern going forward, something I don't think at the time we could have project, then yeah, maybe this ends up being a trade we wish we didn't make.

Right now, can't swing one way or the other. Kevin has still been very useful for us this year. If we go on to win a title, and he looks more like himself going forward, and Wiggins still blossoms into a star, I say it was a trade where everyone wins.
 
randymoss1881 said:
If you don't see a star when you watch wiggins then there's something wrong there.
Click to expand...
If you see a star and not a very athletic, volume scorer, you're probably a biased homer.

Not saying he can't reach stardom, but I've seen athletic, volume scorers fizzle out far more than I've seen them become bona fide stars.
 
I remember some people were talking about wanting to trade Kyrie instead. Not fans, but just outside noise bringing it up. Chad Ford said he thinks Wiggins will be the better of two.

That's where I put the breaks, and say stop. I don't think he'll ever be as good as Kyrie. No way, no how. You can tell from day one, Kyrie had what it took to be an MVP talent in this league.

I see all-star with Wiggins, but I've never seen that same "wow" I saw with Kyrie from day one.

He will never be able to score at the level Kyrie Irving can.
 
godfather said:
I remember some people were talking about wanting to trade Kyrie instead. Not fans, but just outside noise bringing it up. Chad Ford said he thinks Wiggins will be the better of two.

That's where I put the breaks, and say stop. I don't think he'll ever be as good as Kyrie. No way, no how. You can tell from day one, Kyrie had what it took to be an MVP talent in this league.

I see all-star with Wiggins, but I've never seen that same "wow" I saw with Kyrie from day one.

He will never be able to score at the level Kyrie Irving can.
Click to expand...

Don't worry, if Chad Ford actually typed that, he'll go back and edit it in a couple of seasons.
 
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