Johnny Manziel: Swan Won't Return His Calls

could manziel's elbow even hold up for practice in addition to the 40+ throws a game McCown has had to do each week to be competitive?

Ohdang said:

He made good plays, bad plays, and plays where he just threw a screen which I would expect anyone to make accurately. I think his bad plays outweighed his good ones, but his skills players played extremely well and we exploited matchups and got the victory.

That's my definition of below average to average. He had elite stats, but in the context of the game I thought the gameplan, YAC, and Gary Barnidge made his stats look far better than his actual play. You can disagree with me all you want, but he failed my eye test for a playoff caliber QB - which is what I would like us to have. For me "played well" doesn't mean exceeding low expectations set by years of futility, it means playing on the level of the top half of the league, and I don't think he did that. I think his skill players did though, and they should be getting the credit and we should have higher expectations from anyone who plays QB for us.

@Chris I never said I expected perfection. In fact if you actually tried reading the words I actually wrote, I said it was a positive that he only threw one pass that should have been intercepted and that was great because all NFL QB's throw a few of those per game. I do however want people to stop being happy with just being better than Spergeon Wynn, because we need a lot more than what McCown is giving us to beat teams who are actually good.

edit: though I'm freaking ecstatic he's playing well enough to keep Manziel off the field, even if I don't think he's playing well.

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If only it were that easy.

Regardless of the gameplan, you still have to execute it well. Whether it's easy and friendly for the QB, or not. There are a lot of QBs in this league that really struggle doing that.

It's hard to call his performance average, when he threw for 450 yards, two TDs, zero picks. That's not exactly an average performance.

No one said he looked like Tom Brady out there. I don't know if he's good, but he's been good enough to win thus far.

Could not disagree more with what you're stating.

We play in a league where there are bubble screens constantly. There are a lot of plays that are after the catch, that make QBs numbers look better than what they are.

How many times do we see Peyton throw a bubble screen to Damaryius Thomas, and he takes it to the house? This is the new NFL. Sure, there are still great plays being made by the QB, don't get me wrong, but today's game is all about getting your playmakers in space.

We are in a league where we see constant rub screens that frees up receivers up all the time. This is a QB friendly league now. This isn't the old days, where you take three drops behind the center, and launch down the field.

450 yards is a 450 yards. You make it sound like Barnidge did all his work, which is ridiculous. He still threw for over 300 yards to 10 different receivers! He threw the ball 51 times! Without a pick.

If you think that performance was average, then you've not been watching football for very long.

If that's an average performance in the NFL, then 25 teams better find a new QB.

Chris said:

If his bad plays outweighed his good ones, I'm pretty sure we'd have lost. The more you type, the less sense this makes. Just my opinion. I did actually read your post, believe it or not, and I thought it was silly stuff. You imply I didn't try to read your post...last I checked, you said McCown played below average. Which I took issue with. Did you not say that?

I mean, keep talking about Spergeon Wynn, but...the guy just had a better day than any Browns quarterback in history. Nitpick his throws however you want. That fact remains. I haven't heard anybody say he is the future, or he is the answer to all our quarterback woes because I'm sure he won't play like that every game or even close to it. But he did on Sunday.

Also, 400+ yards passing with 2 TDs/1 rush TD should be good enough vs anybody, even "good teams." Not saying he is going to put up those numbers vs Denver and Arizona, simply replying to your statement that the Browns will need "more" against good teams.

Anyway, gonna have to agree to disagree on this. Don't think anyone is trumpeting McCown as the savior, me least of all. But I do think he played a heck of a game Sunday and is the biggest reason the Browns won.

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The guy had a QBR of 80, and he doesn't think he played well? I mean seriously?

I sound like a McCown backer, and I'm hardly that. I don't know if he's good. I thought he was complete garbage personally when we got him.

If Ohlang has doubts about McCown, I don't care, I have them too, still. I don't think he will keep this up personally. I think next week he's going to get his clock cleaned badly.

There's no denying McCown is limited, no one here disagrees that he isn't.

But to sit here and say he's not played well is absolutely ridiculous to me.

I'd like Ohdang to give me definitions of good QB performances. Does he think Flacco out played him?

I mean, I don't really understand what a good performance is supposed to be, outside the "eye test" whatever the hell that means.

That spiral just wasn't tight enough man.

Ohdang said:

I think his bad plays outweighed his good ones, but his skills players played extremely well and we exploited matchups and got the victory.

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Chris said:

That spiral just wasn't tight enough man.

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I don't mean to pile on at Ohdang or anything. I just wish fans in general can just enjoy good things when they at least happen. I'm not saying McCown is the answer, but how can anyone not take what he's given us thus far going forward?

We need more than that? If this defense can get it together, and McCown continues to at least be productive similar to this, we do have a chance to make the playoffs.

I don't think all these things are going to happen, but the Browns have given us a slimmer of hope on the offense for once. And the defense I still feel is capable of being better than what they've been thus far.

If the defense hasn't been so horrible, I think we only have one loss on the season right now. Two at the most. The offense outside of week one has been respectable at least.

We are hardly the Patriots, but who would have thought our offense would be better than the Broncos at this moment? And they're 5-0!

@Ohdang @AZ_

you guys are white knights in my eyes, I don't have the patience to fight this battle, keep up the good work gents, I'm with you on the sidelines.

FiveThous said:

@Ohdang @AZ_

you guys are white knights in my eyes, I don't have the patience to fight this battle, keep up the good work gents, I'm with you on the sidelines.

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Ive been done with this since yesterday.

Given it all I have explaining the PFF grades, I actually think McCown did a fine job of managing the game. Credit where it's due, McCown did what he needed to do and the defense didn't take advantage of his mistakes.

I think the McCown train dies this week. I don't think he's a good QB, just that he's been playing well for us. Well enough for us to win. He's not been this awesome QB by any means, just been good enough to win you games.

I am pretty sure 95% of us will be talking about the next QB on this team by Monday though.

Because the defense he's about to see, well, his limited skills are likely to get exposed pretty bad.

I am just curious to see how our shaky defense holds up against a struggling Manning. It should be a low score game, where we lose by in typical heartbreak fashion. Hopefully the weather is cold, Peyton doesn't like throwing in cold conditions.

AZ_ said:

Ive been done with this since yesterday.

Given it all I have explaining the PFF grades, I actually think McCown did a fine job of managing the game. Credit where it's due, McCown did what he needed to do and the defense didn't take advantage of his mistakes.

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"Pro Football Focus: The most reliable set of metrics since ESPN's Total QBR!"

godfather said:

I think the McCown train dies this week. I don't think he's a good QB, just that he's been playing well for us. Well enough for us to win. He's not been this awesome QB by any means, just been good enough to win you games.

I am pretty sure 95% of us will be talking about the next QB on this team by Monday though.

Because the defense he's about to see, well, his limited skills are likely to get exposed pretty bad.

I am just curious to see how our shaky defense holds up against a struggling Manning. It should be a low score game, where we lose by in typical heartbreak fashion. Hopefully the weather is cold, Peyton doesn't like throwing in cold conditions.

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Josh McCown's production is a direct result of our gameplanning.

Manziel would get murdered.

AZ_ said:

Ive been done with this since yesterday.

Given it all I have explaining the PFF grades, I actually think McCown did a fine job of managing the game. Credit where it's due, McCown did what he needed to do and the defense didn't take advantage of his mistakes.

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Kind of what I thought your stance was. I thought you were more towards me and Godfather on how he played Sunday.

Not sure what @FiveThous is talking about. Can't formulate his own arguments, I suppose.

Chris said:

Not sure what @FiveThous is talking about. Can't formulate his own arguments, I suppose.

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Essentially, the POV is that PFF is infallible in its grading of QBs and that if you don't understand/accept why great games get shitty grades, you're just plain dumb.

I just think these PFF grades for QBs being terrible after a good game by a QB should prompt PFF to look in the mirror a bit, rather than prompt them to try to force feed it to everyone as the be-all-end-all way to see it.

I think B00bie can at least admit although our skill players aren't bad, but limited though.

I mean, it's not easy having a bunch of smaller receivers, it does shrink your passing windows. I'm not suggesting these guys aren't good and they're not making plays either.

Our receiving core isn't bad, but they are limited. Every QB loves throwing to a big target. I don't think you'll find one QB tell you they don't.

I just never thought we'd be a productive offense like we have thus far, with a terrible running game.

We rank 27th in running, which is very disappointing.

If we continue to struggle to run the ball, our offense will eventually sputter.

Soda said:

Essentially, the POV is that PFF is infallible in its grading of QBs and that if you don't understand/accept why great games get shitty grades, you're just plain dumb.

I just think these PFF grades for QBs being terrible after a good game by a QB should prompt PFF to look in the mirror a bit, rather than prompt them to try to force feed it to everyone as the be-all-end-all way to see it.

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Couldn't agree more.

Enough with the condescending bullshit, acting like nobody else understands the PFF grades.