Chief Wahoo Discussion

Chris said:

So I assume all sports logos that include a human (Irish, redskins, etc) should be abolished, correct?

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Can this terrible false-equivalency argument about the Fighting Irish disappear already?

1. It's a leprechaun, and the Irish themselves have chosen to use the leprechaun. Not a depiction of the person.

2. The Irish actually have a STAKE in Notre Dame. The Irish have chosen to bring that logo to the forefront.

3. The Irish weren't slaughtered en masse, only to become a caricature for a sports team.

4. If Irish people have a problem with it, by all means change it. After all they remain a large segment of the population and have the ability to do so.

The Redskins? Absolutely needs to go away. Really shocked people even reference that abomination as a counter argument.

The Wizard of Moz said:

I think you missed my point. The government stepping in and making a law forcing the Indians to do something is something no one should support no matter how much you despise the chief. It isn't their place.

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Fair enough, but the point remains. Would you defend those designs the way you would Wahoo? Bear in mind I'm not saying people are bad people for liking the Chief. I'm just trying to illustrate how blatantly bad the design really is.

The Wizard of Moz said:

Our football team's name coincides with that of a color. We are named after Paul Brown.

Will be a sad day in this country if that ever happens. And I would imagine that would be the stance of most people on both sides of the chief.

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It's a sad day when the government makes a move to prevent discrimination? The Redskins have already lost their copyright. The writing is on the wall, choose to ignore it if got want.

Real Deal said:

Excuse me? Our football team isn't named after a color... try saying it's named after a fantastic, successful, Ohio born man who is responsible for a lot of things. Get your shit together.

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Straw man umbrage. The point stands- the name has meaning to people in Cleveland and maybe in Cincinnati but to everyone else it's a color. Spiders no lacking in seriousness, not that the fantasy world of pro sports requires as such.

kosis said:

Curious, would you ride as hard for these other two? Would it be overly sensitive to say that those were inappropriate?

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Good god that's a good post.

Real Deal said:

Block C navy hat also matches with everything it seems. One of my go to hats. Not a bad buy is what I'm saying.

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It's just so indistinct

kosis said:

Fair enough, but the point remains. Would you defend those designs the way you would Wahoo? Bear in mind I'm not saying people are bad people for liking the Chief. I'm just trying to illustrate how blatantly bad the design really is.

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I understand why you feel that way, but I hate when people post those "Jews" and "Asian" hats to make a point, because that's also a false equivalency.

What people don't get is the Chief Wahoo logo is not attempting to be a caricature of a specific race like those other faces are. I believe that's why they updated the logo in the first place. And the reason why I say that is the blatantly bright red skin. No person looks like that. If we can establish as a starting point that we're not trying to represent a group of real people, then there should be no controversy at all.

Simon said:

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To the surprise of no one.

macbdog said:

discrimination

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Based on the context of your post I don't think you know what this word means. Who is being discriminated against by the Cleveland Indians?

macbdog said:

The Redskins have already lost their copyright

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That's entirely different from making a law that forces a private business to change their name. They were within their rights to take away the copyright. These are not equatable actions.

macbdog said:

but to everyone else it's a color

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Who cares? What meaning does the Panthers have? It's a fucking cat.

Simon said:

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shoes22 said:

I understand why you feel that way, but I hate when people post those "Jews" and "Asian" hats to make a point, because that's also a false equivalency.

What people don't get is the Chief Wahoo logo is not attempting to be a caricature of a specific race like those other faces are. I believe that's why they updated the logo in the first place. And the reason why I say that is the blatantly bright red skin. No person looks like that. If we can establish as a starting point that we're not trying to represent a group of real people, then there should be no controversy at all.

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You can't be serious with the red faced thing? That is ridiculous. Look no further than the redskins for your answer. That is just ignoring history and saying it is a random color. You are right that it is a false equivalency due to the fact that Asians and Jews are doing rather well in this country and Native Americans are the poorest of the poor and have the least representation. Which race does Wahoo represent if not Native Americans? Not being a specific tribe or something from the area somehow makes it even worse. What is the connection?

Just for an outsiders perspective. I am no longer there, but have lived many years in Cleveland. Everyone thinks outside of Cleveland that Wahoo is hillbilly level backwards. To many outside of Cleveland, it is just another reason Cleveland sports are a joke. So if you are really yearning for respect among other teams and cities, you should be willing to part with this blatantly racist caricature no matter how lovable he is. I really think it is good cartoon design, but there is just too much baggage associated with it. Also, at this point, it is never going to get more acceptable and it will just get more and more expensive to change as time goes on.

I would say most people view it like they would someone who waves a confederate flag and says it is just about heritage as opposed to being pro-Confederacy. It's a pretty thin argument and it seems plain ignorant. As a city who has a lot to offer and wishes to be taken seriously as a major metropolitan area and wishes to have sports teams that are on the national radar for something other than controversy, it would be wise to change it.

I personally think the spiders are cool, but do as ye may. You just aren't allowed to whine about not being taken seriously when you act like a clown.

Cavatt said:

You can't be serious with the red faced thing? That is ridiculous. Look no further than the redskins for your answer. That is just ignoring history and saying it is a random color. You are right that it is a false equivalency due to the fact that Asians and Jews are doing rather well in this country and Native Americans are the poorest of the poor and have the least representation. Which race does Wahoo represent if not Native Americans? Not being a specific tribe or something from the area somehow makes it even worse. What is the connection.

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I am saying it doesn't represent any race. It is not a person. It doesn't belong to any "tribe" besides the 25 guys that represent our baseball team. They are Cleveland Indians. Native Americans are not Cleveland Indians. So if you were to ask me, the thing it represents is the 25 guys on the team. Nothing outside of that.

People are so eager to make it something more than that, though.

shoes22 said:

I understand why you feel that way, but I hate when people post those "Jews" and "Asian" hats to make a point, because that's also a false equivalency.

What people don't get is the Chief Wahoo logo is not attempting to be a caricature of a specific race like those other faces are. I believe that's why they updated the logo in the first place. And the reason why I say that is the blatantly bright red skin. No person looks like that. If we can establish as a starting point that we're not trying to represent a group of real people, then there should be no controversy at all.

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Cleveland slaves?

Have a caricature of a black guy, but just make sure to not depict all slaves.

Lets not make this more than what it is now....

David. said:

Cleveland slaves?

Have a caricature of a black guy, but just make sure to not depict all slaves.

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Why are you inserting race into this at all? That's the problem I have.
The team would do well to clarify this, but they don't really bother.