2009/10 Preseason Game 8 - Cavaliers @ Celtics

[JJ Smooth]

i know it wont happen but its probably a good idea to bring shaq off the bench.

:thumbdown

And go back with who? Z? Against the elite starting centers and such like KG, Bynum and Gasol, and Howard? We did that last year, we need a guy to bump people back, Shaq is that person.

You're right it won't happen, and in fact you should've saved yourself the post altogether. C'mon man! Step yo' game up!

 

[twenty23]

KG is not a center and AV guards him fine, but i see a spacing issue with shaq and AV together.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Okay; I agree with many of your posts most of the time, but you are not seriously trying to tell us you would take Boobie over Delonte, are you? Because if you are, give me some of that stash you are taking as it must be some damn good stuff. Boobie can't hold someone else's candle to Delonte, let alone hold his own. I agree that Boobie can help the team, but please stop trying to compare the two of them as Delonte brings sooooo much more to the winning of a title than Boobie does on his best days.

Gah, I wasn't saying I'd take Boobie over Delonte.

I think I need to clear this up, because someone else said a similar thing to my response to that post.

The post I responded to was

Sloppy Delonte > normal Gibson

If Gibson didn't have the unforgettable Game 6 vs Detroit, nobody would want him on this team. His reputation is still living on that one game.

I responded

I beg to differ. I'll take someone who shoots better than 40% from three on a team that has LeBron James and Shaquille O Neal in a heartbeat.

I wasn't responding to the first part of his post, I was responding to the "If Gibson didn't have the unforgettable Game 6 vs Detroit, nobody would want him on this team" comment. I obviously know Delonte is miles ahead of Gibson in every facet of the game, hell, if you've read the Jackson trade thread at all you'll see how I value Delonte. My fault for the miscommunication I guess, should have taken out the Delonte part of the post when I quoted and responded, but I was NOT saying I think Boobie is better than Delonte, I was arguing that Gibson would be an asset to the team regardless of if game 6 happened or not.

 

[Gunther]

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2009/10/22/arace_10-22.ART_ART_10-22-09_C1_T4FELLQ.html?type=rss&cat=&sid=101

Michael Arace commentary: With Shaq around, it's good to be King
Thursday, October 22, 2009

Value City Arena was jammed to capacity for a Cleveland Cavaliers-Boston Celtics exhibition last night. Among the masses were many Celtics fans. They can be a daunting road weapon, and they left happy. But they did not rule the stands.

Columbus is Cavs territory. The local television ratings are a testament. Last night's crowd, for a practice game, was further proof. LeBron James belongs to Ohio (for now, anyway), and he was the draw -- he and his new sidekick, the one with the Size 22 shoes.

The Lakers might be "Showtime," but is there a bigger spectacle on hardwood than these Cavs? James is one of the best three players in the world. Shaquille O'Neal is a first-ballot Hall of Famer.

Set aside, for a second, their basketball bona fides and consider the scope of their celebrity, salesmanship and charisma. What is the width and wattage of their combined smiles? When it comes to the most joyful athletes on the planet, LeBron is in the discussion -- and Shaq might be at the top of the list. And now they're barnstorming through NBA, side by side, MC Bron-Bron and DJ Diesel.

The Celtics, looking to return to their 2008 championship form, added Rasheed Wallace to Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. This is an awesome collection of efficient and stylish killers, a basketball version of the Yankees. It is no wonder they are the favorites in the Eastern Conference.

By definition, then, the Cavs are underdogs.

What a dynamic.

The question that will linger until the season begins has to do with how O'Neal will mesh with the Cavs. It has been argued in this space that one of the most intimidating low-post players in NBA history can only help -- especially against Orlando -- but there is still work to be done.

Cavs coach Mike Brown talked yesterday about moving O'Neal around (high post, elbows, blocks) and giving different looks so that other teams can't home in on him.

O'Neal isn't fretting a thing.

"Perfectly" is what he says when asked how he'll fit in with James.

"He's a great player," O'Neal said. "He's a very, very unselfish player. He likes to pass the ball. I like to pass the ball. We'll be fine."

Since O'Neal arrived from Phoenix via trade over the summer, he has uttered the motto "win a ring for the King." In this vision, Shaq is deferential.

"I'm not here to garner any individual accolades," he said. "I've been in the league 17 years, and I've done all that. Our job, the other four, is to make LeBron look good."

Last night, the Celtics rolled to a 96-82 victory. Brown didn't care that his Cavs lost an exhibition; it was the way they lost that riled him. Brown apologized to Columbus, his hometown, for not putting on a better show.

It was not a poor performance, especially when Garnett and Allen were rested. There were glimmers. In one stretch in the second half: O'Neal spun around Wallace for a reverse layup; O'Neal put back one of his misses; O'Neal up-faked Wallace and popped a little shot in his face; O'Neal, below the left elbow, stuck a bounce pass through a double team to James, who was flying down the lane and made a reverse dunk. These drew roars from the crowd.

"He can step into any situation and be great," LeBron said. "That's the type of player he is."

There is some uneasiness in Cleveland. The Cavs finished the exhibition season 3-4. Delonte West, a key component, has practiced but has not played since his arrest on a gun-possession charge in Maryland last month. James doesn't like the preseason.

O'Neal is unworried.

"By next Tuesday, it's going to be the real deal, and we'll be ready," Shaq said. "I look forward to a fabulous season."

Fabulous? Good chance. Joyous? Definitely. Curtain up.

 

[ice cream man]

i know it wont happen but its probably a good idea to bring shaq off the bench.

Right. Why has Shaq been sitting while LeBron's getting his 2nd quarter rest? Honestly, it's not that Shaq and LeBron doesn't work, it's just that LeBron and Z will work better. This broad topic may be something we complain about the whole year.

Shaq needs to be on the floor when LeBron is off the floor. Adjust your rotations Coach.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Right. Why has Shaq been sitting while LeBron's getting his 2nd quarter rest? Honestly, it's not that Shaq and LeBron doesn't work, it's just that LeBron and Z will work better. This broad topic may be something we complain about the whole year.

Shaq needs to be on the floor when LeBron is off the floor. Adjust your rotations Coach.

LeBron James finally has a chance to play with someone who has an elite post-game and one pre-season game now has you guys wanting Shaq to come off the bench?

I thought the irrationality would calm down after a few hours of sleep, you guys are crazy.

 

[rabman_gold]

...

Shaq and LeBron's b-ball IQ goes beyond anything you guys could ever hope for, especially considering their talent at the professional level.

This is a different situation, where Shaq finally teams with someone who almost would drive 99% of the time if he had to. LeBron finally teams with someone who would go for 5 foot shots bullying people in the post 99% of the time if he wanted to.

You don't stop something because it didn't have a chance to work. You keep trying in any way you try to do new things the moment they come up. For the next time, they'll keep working with it so they find something that successful.

With Z and LeBron, they used their skills to combine into a deadly attack using LeBron's drive and Z's shot. With Andy and LeBron in 2006, they started creating new pick and rolls in the playoffs as they went along, never doing it before.

This is no different with LBJ and Shaq. They'll figure it out.

There's games like these all the time, where our favorite team suffers a setback and loses pretty badly.

Just get over it so we can keep moving forward, keep getting better so we can finally get the BIG GOAL of the year. I'm sure this pre-season game will have us looking back and asking: "Did we really suggest moving Shaq to the bench?"

Don't worry, it's not terrible when two really smart players figure it out. It'll be what allows us to win it all.

 

[Gunther]

...

Shaq and LeBron's b-ball IQ goes beyond anything you guys could ever hope for, especially considering their talent at the professional level.

This is a different situation, where Shaq finally teams with someone who almost would drive 99% of the time if he had to. LeBron finally teams with someone who would go for 5 foot shots bullying people in the post 99% of the time if he wanted to.

You don't stop something because it didn't have a chance to work. You keep trying in any way you try to do new things the moment they come up. For the next time, they'll keep working with it so they find something that successful.

With Z and LeBron, they used their skills to combine into a deadly attack using LeBron's drive and Z's shot. With Andy and LeBron in 2006, they started creating new pick and rolls in the playoffs as they went along, never doing it before.

This is no different with LBJ and Shaq. They'll figure it out.

There's games like these all the time, where our favorite team suffers a setback and loses pretty badly.

Just get over it so we can keep moving forward, keep getting better so we can finally get the BIG GOAL of the year. I'm sure this pre-season game will have us looking back and asking: "Did we really suggest moving Shaq to the bench?"

Don't worry, it's not terrible when two really smart players figure it out. It'll be what allows us to win it all.

Couldn't agree more. The Cavs may need a few games to figure it all out, but the talent level on this team is insane, even without Delone and Powe short term. I believe Shaq when he says this is the best team on paper that he's ever played on - because it is. We may experience a few growing pains, but I'm not worried.

 

[twenty23]

Right. Why has Shaq been sitting while LeBron's getting his 2nd quarter rest? Honestly, it's not that Shaq and LeBron doesn't work, it's just that LeBron and Z will work better. This broad topic may be something we complain about the whole year.

Shaq needs to be on the floor when LeBron is off the floor. Adjust your rotations Coach.

and we'd have someone who can constantly create there own shot while lebrons not on the flour.

 

[ice cream man]

I don't want Shaq coming off the bench.

I want him on the floor when LeBron's off the floor.

Z's not gonna get to many looks if LeBron's not on the floor with him.

Regular season: This might be a problem. Playoffs: (when LeBron's playing 40 min.) probably not.

And I agree with rabman on the basketball IQ.

 

[AMC]

So I was thinking today, do you guys think the Cavs lost on purpose last night? Maybe as a plan to suprise the Celtics next week

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

So I was thinking today, do you guys think the Cavs lost on purpose last night? Maybe as a plan to suprise the Celtics next week

:chuckles:
No.


But it's a pre-season game, not really worried. They certainly didn't play very hard and didn't seem very focused or in-sync. a far cry from what we will see this season.

 

[Cavatt]

I don't want Shaq coming off the bench.

I want him on the floor when LeBron's off the floor.

Z's not gonna get to many looks if LeBron's not on the floor with him.

Regular season: This might be a problem. Playoffs: (when LeBron's playing 40 min.) probably not.

And I agree with rabman on the basketball IQ.

I agree that he should see some time with the 2nd unit. Who better to eat up some possessions from Boobie. It would get him the touches we know he can convert, and it gives our winning formula from last year some time. Everything is not an either or.

 

[rabman_gold]

Hm, you all remember last year when Mike Brown had a rotation in the 2nd quarter where Boobie, Sasha, Wally, Andy, and Lo Wright were all playing at the same time? Remember when he immediately pushed Mo into the 2nd lineup in the quarter from then on because of the results from that first game?

.... Yeah.... Good times.

Seriously:

1. Depth has taken another step up, where it may not matter as we still have good leads with LeBron sitting.
2. If it does matter to the point of having certain players on the court at all times (ex: LeBron and/or Mo on the court at all times last year), then I trust that Mike will fix the rotations accordingly. He's right now on the pattern that gives 4 of 5 starters rest with 4 minutes left in the first quarter. That carries over into the second quarter, with Mo being on the court instead of LeBron. If Z, J.J., Moon, Boobie, and Mo can't get it done, I expect Mike to change it when the problem arises in the regular season. He probably wants to give the maximum rest possible before he sees the problem, but don't worry. If it doesn't work, he'll change it quickly as proven before.
3. If only using Mo out there isn't enough to keep leads this year (we'll see on 10/27), he may put Shaq out there instead WITH Mo. He may bring Delonte back incredibly quickly so that the old rotation from last year (bench + Delonte + Mo = 12:00-7:00 left in Second Quarter) is in effect.
4. I remember when in between a certain time, Mike was using Z and Mo out there from the time LeBron rested. It went on over time to being less effective, which brought Delonte to be used instead of Z. This shows me that Mike is adaptive to any situation. He's not Phil Jackson-adaptive (quick-draw), but at the next highest level, which is good enough since he is super intelligent.

Rotations are never set into stone. Usually, the only time they have the least amount of adjustments (the minimum) is during the critical stretch in the playoffs to keep teams in a groove. He'll tinker for the first two months, which may cost us 3-5 games each month (including the Celtics game, pity...), but we'll then be incredibly effective, hot, in a rhythm, groove, good stretch, etc. etc., which usually is ALWAYS the case in January and February.

Don't panic from the losses guys. They're going to happen. We're probably not beyond a 66 win team. But I have faith in the end result. You should too. Please refer panicking posters to this post if they overreact (or give them time to recover before this is the case).