Addressing the hole at center

[DELONTEizDad]

Over half the games is hyperbole. I see no reason that Varejao can't give us between 60-70 games next year, he gave us 65 last year. I said I'd like to bring in somebody else, I just know that Hawes isn't the answer.

We gave him a shot, but now it's time to look elsewhere.

He's never started even 45 games in his career, he can't be counted on to start 60-70 when he's another year older.

Thing is last year Hawes WAS the answer though. He actually got the ball to move around the offense and we looked functional.

 

[Derek]

He's never started even 45 games in his career, he can't be counted on to start 60-70 when he's another year older.

Thing is last year Hawes WAS the answer though. He actually got the ball to move around the offense and we looked functional.

Offense is only half the game. Hawes made us worse overall.

Game started is a poor measure of durability. Varejao has played starters minutes for most of his career, including last year for 65 games.

 

[dawgpridetosu]

Thing is last year Hawes WAS the answer though. He actually got the ball to move around the offense and we looked functional.

He was the answer last year, playing for a completely and utterly incompetent offensive coach. I doubt he would have the same marginal impact this year, when he's such a negative on defense and we have an actual offensive coach.

 

[Seiklis]

11. I've heard Marcin Gortat mentioned in connection with the Cavs, but he will be hot item on the market. The 6-foot-11, 240-pounder is a physical center. He averaged 13.2 points and 9.5 rebounds in 33 minutes a game for Washington, and the Wizards really want to keep him. Any contender would love to have Gortat, because he sets serious picks and loves to defend.

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2014/06/cleveland_cavaliers_scribbles_3.html

It's Pluto but this is the first mention connecting the Cavs and Gortat

 

[DELONTEizDad]

The team plays better with Zeller on the floor than with Hawes on the floor. Does that not make him by technicality a better player?

Hawes may be a more skilled player, but he gives back so much on defense that I just don't want him on the team next year. And regardless, I'd rather pay Zeller two million than Hawes more than five. Zeller will be perfect for Blatt's offense.

Who says the team plays better with Zeller on the floor? Certainly no one on the Cavs last year or anyone who watched the games. Hawes played over him for a reason, we were trying to make the playoffs.

Cost on the other hand is the true equalizer in the equation, I think you have a much more salient point though.

 

[DELONTEizDad]

Offense is only half the game. Hawes made us worse overall.

Game started is a poor measure of durability. Varejao has played starters minutes for most of his career, including last year for 65 games.

According to a certain stat he did. You have already admitted you would re-sign him and that he's better than Zeller, I don't know what you are trying to argue now.

Starter's minutes versus starting differs in who he is facing and banging around with. There is a difference. Counting on Andy to start 60-70 this year is foolhardy at best.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Who says the team plays better with Zeller on the floor? Certainly no one on the Cavs last year or anyone who watched the games.

Cost on the other hand is the true equalizer in the equation, I think you have a much more salient point though.

Zeller's per game +/- last year was -0.1. Hawes' per game +/- last year was -7.5. This isn't rocket science. The team was better with Zeller on the court, and by a substantial margin.

By the way, Hawes' -7.5 per game +/- was the third worst in the entire league.

 

[Derek]

According to a certain stat he did. You have already admitted you would re-sign him and that he's better than Zeller, I don't know what you are trying to argue now.

Starter's minutes versus starting differs in who he is facing and banging around with. There is a difference. Counting on Andy to start 60-70 this year is foolhardy at best.

According to a certain stat like actual results?

I said I'd re-sign him for $5 million to play a 15-20 minute reserve role (which isn't plausible). If he's getting big minutes, he make s anegative impact. He's a little better than Zeller, and Zeller is still improving. I'll gladly take Zeller over him moving forward.

You keep putting words in my mouth, and you only seem to read what you want to. Consider our conversation over.

Edited to add: You have been added to my ignore list. No need to respond to me anymore.

 

[DELONTEizDad]

Zeller's per game +/- last year was -0.1. Hawes' per game +/- last year was -7.5. This isn't rocket science. The team was better with Zeller on the court, and by a substantial margin.

By the way, Hawes' -7.5 per game +/- was the third worst in the entire league.

Ridiculous argument.

Kyrie's RPM was 42nd for PGs last year. Are you going to argue he's the 42nd best PG in the NBA now?

 

[Jack Brickman]

Ridiculous argument.

Kyrie's RPM was 42nd for PGs last year. Are you going to argue he's the 42nd best PG in the NBA now?

So are you saying that +/- doesn't matter? Personally, I'd argue that it's one of the few stats that actually does matter. Regardless of how many points you put up, how many rebounds you grab, how many assists you throw out, or how well you shoot, if your team is getting their ass whooped by seven and a half points every time you step foot on the floor, you're part of the problem.

 

[dawgpridetosu]

I hate to inhibit the argument you guys are having but last year playing under Mike Brown, regardless of who we're talking about, has virtually no effect on how the front office is going to evaluate those guys going forward playing under David Blatt.

 

[DELONTEizDad]

So are you saying that +/- doesn't matter? Personally, I'd argue that it's one of the few stats that actually does matter. Regardless of how many points you put up, how many rebounds you grab, how many assists you throw out, or how well you shoot, if your team is getting their ass whooped by seven and a half points every time you step foot on the floor, you're part of the problem.

It matters but it's not "the end all be all."

See Kyrie Irving.

 

[Jack Brickman]

It matters but it's not "the end all be all."

See Kyrie Irving.

Kyrie kind of played like shit (for him) offensively last year, and was godawful on defense. I'd say his +/- numbers last year were pretty warranted. He's obviously the most talented guy on the team, but last year I personally wouldn't consider him to be the best guy on the team. Probably not even top three.

 

[DELONTEizDad]

According to a certain stat like actual results?

I said I'd re-sign him for $5 million to play a 15-20 minute reserve role (which isn't plausible). If he's getting big minutes, he make s anegative impact. He's a little better than Zeller, and Zeller is still improving. I'll gladly take Zeller over him moving forward.

You keep putting words in my mouth, and you only seem to read what you want to. Consider our conversation over.

Edited to add: You have been added to my ignore list. No need to respond to me anymore.

What actual results? Hawes played over Zeller for a reason. You already admitted Hawes is better. There was reason Griffin traded for Hawes when we had Zeller.

Now you've added the wrinkle that Zeller is "still improving." Hawes is only 20 months older than Zeller, Tyler is not exactly a spring chicken. If TZ can improve it's not out of the realm of possibility that so can Hawes.... especially in a world that we can now count on 31 year old Varejao to improve and start 60-70 games for the first time ever.

As for your blocking of me I think everyone can see what that means in reference to this conversation and your continuing inability to provide answers without backtracking. That being said you are a good poster so I will miss the discourse.

 

[Jordan]

What actual results? Hawes played over Zeller for a reason. You already admitted Hawes is better. There was reason Griffin traded for Hawes when we had Zeller.

Now you've added the wrinkle that Zeller is "still improving." Hawes is only 20 months older than Zeller, Tyler is not exactly a spring chicken. If TZ can improve it's not out of the realm of possibility that so can Hawes.... especially in a world that we can now count on 31 year old Varejao to improve and start 60-70 games for the first time ever.

As for your blocking of me I think everyone can see what that means in reference to this conversation and your continuing inability to provide answers without backtracking. That being said you are a good poster so I will miss the discourse.

I think there is massive confusion about roles. I think Hawes would be better in Zeller's "role" than the latter; however, it's tough to tell without having seen him play as 1st big off the bench. Hawes has always been a defensive liability, and if we re-sign him it should not be as a starter because his defense does cost us, but he can be a great floor spacer. The question I have is who should start? I've never seen Zeller play relatively big minutes, but if he can be better defensively than Hawes maybe the former starting is the solution.