Andrew Wiggins

[CBBI]

Crazy.

Look I really do get it - I understand the possibility exists that the Cavs might have thrown away a longer-lasting dynasty by trading away what appears to be a potential young superstar. I understand every argument in relation to that.

But this isn't a normal town and this isn't a normal circumstance. Cleveland is by far and away the most tortured sports city in the history of the American sports world. Cashing in one professional title in any sport would be the equivalent to five or more titles in another city. It seriously means that much.

At the end of the day, I'm just not going to stress over the 2 or 3 additional titles we hypothetically weren't able to win by trading Wiggins provided we cash in that first one with the group we have.

Gotta crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run ya know? If we win one title and that's it, then maybe five or six years from now I'll be asking that "what if" question, but lets focus on cashing in that first one before we stress about how many we missed out on.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Caron's Prime was really really short. Definitely not the defender.

I agree with this as well. I don't necessarily think Wiggins will have the same career trajectory either, I think he is in a good place to be be a very good player for a sustained amount of time and hopefully he won't end up on a team with this decade's version of Gilbert Arenas and Antawn Jamison.

 

[CBBI]

Now @gourimoko, if your belief is that we'd have an equal chance to win the title this season and next season with Andrew Wiggins as we do currently with Kevin Love, then that's a different story entirely.

 

[gourimoko]

Now @gourimoko, if your belief is that we'd have an equal chance to win the title this season and next season with Andrew Wiggins as we do currently with Kevin Love, then that's a different story entirely.

I don't.

I think our chances to win a championship are higher this year. In fact, I think Kevin Love is what puts the Cavs over the top (as in, we're favorited over GSW).

However, two years from now, I expect a fall-off with respect to the probability that we'll still be the favorites. We could be, surely, but I don't think our situation is as stable as some here tend to believe.

I think Andrew Wiggins locked up virtually forever is more valuable than having Kevin Love for a few years. Could Kevin be a Cav for life? Possibly...

Lastly, when it's all said and done, I don't think Kevin Love as a Cavalier would have as great an impact as Andrew Wiggins would in a few years. But that's highly speculative. I see Wiggins as being a 1a, superstar, potential MVP level talent. He's a raw talent, but the talent is there.

I don't see that with Kevin Love.

 

[randymoss1881]

You don't think that one title for a city that hasn't seen one in most of its fans' living memories is more valuable than a single elite player? Elite players go on to not win titles all the time. I'd rather see one title for Cleveland than anything else right now.

I see what you mean but the way Wiggins is going when lebron retired you'd still have an elite 2 that are still under 30.

Also I think Wiggins will be light years above Butler by year 3. He is suppose to be raw but the last 35 games he's getting 19-5 with 48% shooting. He is getting to the line and the refs don't give him calls at it is. What happens when he gets a tighter handle and gets calls.

 

[Cavatt]

I see what you mean but the way Wiggins is going when lebron retired you'd still have an elite 2 that are still under 30.

Also I think Wiggins will be light years above Butler by year 3. He is suppose to be raw but the last 35 games he's getting 19-5 with 48% shooting. He is getting to the line and the refs don't give him calls at it is. What happens when he gets a tighter handle and gets calls.

This is the thing right here. He doesn't have to improve much to really have an advantage. His NBA body is coming and he already lookes strong as hell.

 

[CosmoKramer]

Wow, Caron Butler.

This thread is going to be hilarious in a couple years. Keep it coming people, can someone please make the Gerald Green comparison again?

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Wow, Caron Butler.

This thread is going to be hilarious in a couple years. Keep it coming people, can someone please make the Gerald Green comparison again?

If Wiggins becomes peak Caron Butler and sustains it for more than 3 years, he'll have had a successful career.

 

[The Oi]

He reminds me of Harrison Barnes more than anyone.

 

[CosmoKramer]

If Wiggins becomes peak Caron Butler and sustains it for more than 3 years, he'll have had a successful career.

I guess that'd be successful for most players, but I'd consider peak-Caron Butler a disappointment for Wiggins.

Butler's best three-year stretch in Washington (20/7/4 on 46/32/87 splits) covered his prime years (26-28) when he was playing over 39 minutes a night a game. There's not a snowball's chance in hell Wiggins is only scoring twenty a night playing close to 40 minutes while hitting 32% from deep in his prime, he's already scoring sixteen and shooting 34% from three as a teenager.

That age gets taken for granted here. Wiggins is finishing up his age-19 season, when Butler was the same age he was at a playing at a prep school in Maine. Butler didn't get to UConn until he was 20, and he didn't start playing in the NBA until he was 22. Even then, despite being three years younger, Wiggins was still arguably better than Butler as a rookie.

Wiggins : 35.0 MPG, 15.9 PPG (44/34/73 splits), 4.3 RPG, 1.9 APG, 1.1 SPG, 0.6 BPG, 2.0 TPG
Butler : 36.6 MPG, 15.4 PPG (42/32/82 splits), 5.1 RPG, 2.7 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.4 BPG, 2.5 TPG


Where are Wiggins' numbers going to be in another two years when he's 22? I'm of the opinion he makes a leap like Paul George did, he's already further along offensively than George was during his rookie season. George was the better defender, but he was also playing in a much better defensive system surrounded by other plus defenders in George Hill and Roy Hibbert. Wiggins isn't lacking some intangible George possessed, they've both taken pride in their individual defense from the start of their careers. It's not hard to envision Wiggins being a regular fixture on the All-Defense team in the future, his physical tools are that elite.

Wiggins will play more small forward as he fills out, which would increase his rebounding opportunities and better utilize his length and shot blocking ability (he's already blocked more shots in 60 games than Caron Butler ever did in a full season). IMO, and even being conservative, statistically he'll easily blow past what Butler was doing in his first three years in the league.

Most Cavs fans don't like to admit there's a chance by the time Wiggins is 26-28 he's one of the best players in the league. That's why the Caron Butler comparison seems so low. I'd be wildly disappointed if Wiggins peaked with a couple All-Star appearances as a complementary player on a few 40-win teams, he's shown the promise to be much more than that. Wiggins' run in February (20/5/3 on 47/34/79 splits) might have been the best stretch of basketball a rookie's played in years.

I think it's telling we've moved past the point of questioning whether he's going to be a good player; the question now is just how good he's going to be.

 

[randymoss1881]

It's insulting to Wiggins to say a prime like career of Butler is good.

 

[All4One1ForAll]

The thing that would worry me about Wiggins as a Minnesota fan is that the guy really doesn't contribute anything outside of scoring right now, which he isn't even doing efficiently. He's not a good rebounder for his position, he's not a good passer, and most surprisingly he's actually a horrible defender, which was supposed to be something he could come in and be good at right away.

Now let me be clear. I still think he'll be a multiple time All Star, but people need to slow down on calling this kid a future MVP or anything like that. I feel like he's getting so much hype largely because the other rookies in this class have been such hot garbage. If he was putting up these numbers as part of the Kyrie rookie class, would he be looked at like he is now? Kyrie put up 18.5/5.4/3.7 on an efficient .566 TS percentage and he wasn't hyped nearly as much as Wiggins is now. Hell, Dion Waiters was deemed to be a bust since his rookie year (and justifiably so), yet his rookie numbers and advanced stats were very similar to that of Wiggins.

And even moving away from the stats and looking at the eye test, his lack of handles is another thing that would worry me as a fan. Every superstar wing has had great handles, which allow them to create their own shot effectively. Wiggins is getting these TMac comparisons but TMac was an exceptional ballhandler and playmaker for his position, 2 areas in which Wiggins is lacking.

To me, Wiggins will be on that Paul George type talent level. He'll be better on the offensive end, but worse on the defensive end. And Paul George is an amazing player, so that shouldn't be taken as an insult.

 

[All4One1ForAll]

It's insulting to Wiggins to say a prime like career of Butler is good.

I don't think you can say it's insulting until he proves himself in this league and justifies that he'll be significantly better. You can make predictions all you want, but right now Wiggins is putting up 15.9/4.3/1.9 on an abysmal .509 TS percentage with a Net Rating of -12, a Box Plus/Minus of -2.1, a VORP of -.1, and only .034 WS/48. Keep in mind I'm not saying he's not going to be a good player, because he'll be a multiple time All Star in my mind. But I don't think he deserves the privilege of being able to think of it as an insult to be in the same sentence as Caron Butler, who was a good player in his own right (and again, I'm not saying he'll top off as a Caron Butler type). He hasn't proven anything yet, so why put him on such a pedestal?

 

[CBBI]

I don't.

I think our chances to win a championship are higher this year. In fact, I think Kevin Love is what puts the Cavs over the top (as in, we're favorited over GSW).

However, two years from now, I expect a fall-off with respect to the probability that we'll still be the favorites. We could be, surely, but I don't think our situation is as stable as some here tend to believe.

I think Andrew Wiggins locked up virtually forever is more valuable than having Kevin Love for a few years. Could Kevin be a Cav for life? Possibly...

Lastly, when it's all said and done, I don't think Kevin Love as a Cavalier would have as great an impact as Andrew Wiggins would in a few years. But that's highly speculative. I see Wiggins as being a 1a, superstar, potential MVP level talent. He's a raw talent, but the talent is there.

I don't see that with Kevin Love.

Ok that's kind of what I figured.

Would you also agree that the Cavaliers only have a finite amount of years of Peak LeBron (as in best player in the world level LeBron) left? And since that's the case, it actually makes more sense to do whatever it takes to maximize our title chances in those years? Even if it means sacrificing longer-term sustainability?

I completely agree with the thought process that the Cavaliers would likely be better 4, 5 and 6 years from now with Wiggins than Love (possibly even 3 years from now), but shouldn't the focus rightfully be on the next 2 years?

If the Cavs had already won a title or two in LeBron's first tenure here, I wouldn't be making this point because it wouldn't really be applicable. The situation would call for a long-term strategy. But they've never won anything. The city for all intents and purposes hasn't won anything since 99% of the posters on this board have been alive.

There's just more pressure to win right now. If cashing in a ring now means sacrificing a few years down the road, I'm ok with it. We win a title this year or next and I will never ever complain about the Kevin Love/Andrew Wiggins deal -- no matter how good Wiggins becomes.

 

[macbdog]

He reminds me of Harrison Barnes more than anyone.

How none Of you see the obvious Paul Pierce parallels is beyond me.