Chief Wahoo Discussion

[bornjoke]

By keeping it exactly as it is now? Not the official logo for broadcast purposes, but still associated with the team so people like myself who view the image as nothing more than a baseball symbol can still proudly wear it without it being outdated and a relic?

How is anything you just said compromising?

 

[kosis]

I hate to keep going to this well, but I can't think of anything simpler. If it were the Cleveland Chinamen, and it's 2016, and someone were to say "I don't see race in the Chinamen. I see baseball. That's why it should stay." Is there anyone participating in this thread that's good with that argument? Shoes included? I just can't understand the ability to rationalize away racism to the point where you don't even recognize the racist elements. How is that not dangerous? Normalizing and avoiding it is more toxic (to reference Keys' point) than outright acknowledging it. No?

 

[BimboColesHair]

Forgot about the blackhawks.

To me, they are the banner example for how the Dolan's should handle this situation.

Got with a Native organization to help raise awareness on what present day Native families are dealing with, raised awareness on the history of Natives, discussed ways to portray them honorably, and created their present day logo cooperatively.

I remember when the outrage sparked for them, because it started for Miami OH at the same time too, and my older brother was there while they were still the Redskins.

Haven't heard many, if any, complaints about them since.

 

[bornjoke]

I've always felt one of the worst aspects of the Wahoo logo is that they chose red as the skin color. That's the biggest no no to me on the topic, because I view the term or idea of "redskins" as the worst possible derogatory term to call a Native.

You can keep "Chief Wahoo" and do something like what the Chicago Blackhawks did a few years back, which I mentioned in here the last time this discussion was raging. Get with a group of Native representatives, and come up with a tasteful logo that isn't a caricature, that isn't portraying a Native as redskinned, and that isn't blatantly racist.

I'm honestly shocked that hasn't happened yet.

Yeah it sucks we haven't dialed the logo back. At least take steps in the right direction if you're not going to completely change it.

I guess the Blackhawks logo is still an issue with some but it's definitely not AS offensive.

http://www.espn.com/chicago/nhl/sto...nversation-team-identity-versus-appropriation

"This is a sensitive subject for some sports fans, so let's be clear: The Blackhawks are not the Redskins. Their name is not a slur. The Blackhawks are not the Cleveland Indians. Their logo isn't a cartoonish, leering Indian."

 

[shoes22]

How is anything you just said compromising?

Because it isn’t the primary logo anymore. Anyone that wants to avoid the logo has the option of buying the default, more socially acceptable block C. Chief Wahoo isn’t being “forced” on anyone in this instance.

 

[bornjoke]

Because it isn’t the primary logo anymore. Anyone that wants to avoid the logo has the option of buying the default, more socially acceptable block C. Chief Wahoo isn’t being “forced” on anyone in this instance.

That's not compromise though. That's a change that's already been established.

 

[BimboColesHair]

Yeah it sucks we haven't dialed the logo back. At least take steps in the right direction if you're not going to completely change it.

I guess the Blackhawks logo is still an issue with some but it's definitely not AS offensive.

http://www.espn.com/chicago/nhl/sto...nversation-team-identity-versus-appropriation

"This is a sensitive subject for some sports fans, so let's be clear: The Blackhawks are not the Redskins. Their name is not a slur. The Blackhawks are not the Cleveland Indians. Their logo isn't a cartoonish, leering Indian."

Except it really isn't, at least with regards to actual Natives.

I think I have a unique view on this because I live in New Mexico, which I believe has the highest % of its population made up of Native Americans in the country, though I may not be right with that.

The ones who are vocal that I've talked to in my time living in this state hate Chief Wahoo. It's the reason I ditched my Chief cap and went to the crooked C cap a few months after I moved, since I associate with Natives quite often out here. And they hate it mostly for the reason I mentioned in my initial response to you; Redskin or the phrase "redskins" is the equal to portraying them with big lips, or slanted eyes, or a big nose, or calling them a N*****, or a spic, or a kike, or a cracker, etc., etc. They don't like being called that, and they don't like being portrayed like that, and its easy to understand why they feel that way.

As I mentioned above, the Blackhawks working with a group of Native representatives really changed the narrative about their logo and team name. The only people it pisses off nowadays are white SJWs who just want all Native themed teams to go away, regardless if they honorably portray or bring attention to Natives, or if they are a racist caricature of Natives. To them, there's no difference between the 2.

 

[Chris]

Except it really isn't, at least with regards to actual Natives.

I think I have a unique view on this because I live in New Mexico, which I believe has the highest % of its population made up of Native Americans in the country, though I may not be right with that.

The ones who are vocal that I've talked to in my time living in this state hate Chief Wahoo. It's the reason I ditched my Chief cap and went to the crooked C cap a few months after I moved, since I associate with Natives quite often out here. And they hate it mostly for the reason I mentioned in my initial response to you; Redskin or the phrase "redskins" is the equal to portraying them with big lips, or slanted eyes, or a big nose, or calling them a N*****, or a spic, or a kike, or a cracker, etc. etc. They don't like being called that, and they don't like being portrayed like that, and its easy to see why they feel that way.

As I mentioned above, the Blackhawks working with a group of Native representatives really changed the narrative about their logo and team name. The only people it pisses off nowadays are white SJWs who just want all Native themed teams to go away, regardless if they honorably portray or bring attention to Natives, or if they are a racist caricature of Natives.

Do they equate 'Indian' with those terms?

 

[Tornicade]

Id be okay with the Cleveland Tribe

 

[shoes22]

I hate to keep going to this well, but I can't think of anything simpler. If it were the Cleveland Chinamen, and it's 2016, and someone were to say "I don't see race in the Chinamen. I see baseball. That's why it should stay." Is there anyone participating in this thread that's good with that argument? Shoes included? I just can't understand the ability to rationalize away racism to the point where you don't even recognize the racist elements. How is that not dangerous? Normalizing and avoiding it is more toxic (to reference Keys' point) than outright acknowledging it. No?

No I would not be in favor of the “Chinamen” name or logo...for the primary reason that it’s too specific. The words “Indians” and “tribe” are colloquially vague enough that if we actually made it a priority, we could strip those words of its racial meaning as it pertains to our baseball team and make them stand for something else, if we so choose.

And I never said i don’t “recognize” the racist elements to the logo. If you go back further in the thread I’ve went through in detail the history and racist origins of the logo. But just because it started out as racial, doesn’t mean that we as a society can’t use it in a non-racial way in 2016, because that image symbolically represents something else.

 

[BimboColesHair]

Do they equate 'Indian' with those terms?

No. None that I have met at least.

And the crazy thing is most of them are Indians fans, or Braves fans, or FSU fans, or any other Native mascot team. They really love that their heritage isn't forgotten and is still being exposed to newer and newer generations, even if its through something as trivial as sports. They just want it done in a respectful manner. It's crazy how much sports gear they wear too.

I've actually seen quite a few people randomly out and about in Indians gear where my fiance's family lives (Bloomfield, NM), so naturally I approach them and talk to them since its rare to find Cleveland fans out here.

Certainly not the end all be all to the discussion, but those I have met certainly have made the biggest impact on how I view the logo moving forward.

 

[Ohio]

The 70s uniform the team wore as alternates this season are fucking awesome...I'd love to see them as the primaries. The crooked C is cool with me too...so is the Block C.

Obviously we all grew up with Chief and everyone views it differently, I personally can't disagree with the take anyone has on it because I think they are all correct for their respective reasons; due to that, it should be changed to something more appropriate or rid of altogether so everyone can at least be comfortable with the team logo.

 

[Real Deal]

Wrong thread

 

[Cavatt]

Oriental would be the best comparison to Indian as both are sorta taboo without being offensive in and of themselves. Both are sort of misattributed to the wrong groups. It's weird to perpetuate it. Again, i am sure people around the world watching baseball are saying, WTF Cleveland. When the conversation started maybe you could make an argument, but in 2016 we are way past this.

I read recently that African American performers really liked Al Jolson doing black face in the Jazz Singer because he did the role with dignity. But just because it was a great performance and the minority in question at the time thought it was OK, doesn't mean it would be OK for someome to do it today. That is the difference. It's not like they are selling out the old merch, they are making new stuff all the time.

 

[BimboColesHair]

The 70s uniform the team wore as alternates this season are fucking awesome...I'd love to see them as the primaries. The crooked C is cool with me too...so is the Block C.

Obviously we all grew up with Chief and everyone views it differently, I personally can't disagree with the take anyone has on it because I think they are all correct for their respective reasons; due to that, it should be changed to something more appropriate or rid of altogether so everyone can at least be comfortable with the team logo.

Sexy AF