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Chris Grant - Cavaliers GM

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Dinner Bell Mel said:
You guys overrating Waiters seriously need to buy a fucking clue...

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sg
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I didn't realize that PER was the be-all, end-all of stats.

Dion does a lot of things that PER ignores, such as hockey assists (which he leads the Cavs in) and playing solid (I'd argue more than solid lately) defense. PER only measures defense in steals and blocks, Dion doesn't get a lot of those, but he plays fundamentally sound defense and rarely gives easy baskets to the other guy (although earlier in the season he was guilty of it, he's cleaned it up).
 
I think the thing that is missed is the usage rate of the players, Waiters is in the top 6 in usage rate for all SG, Beal who is also close has around the same PER. The only players with a similar usage rate with higher the 15 PERs (average) are Wade, Harden, Ellis. What that tells me, is if Waiters can improve his shooting % and turnovers. He should go up. If he was 26 or 27 then i would agree he is a bust, but he is in year 2 of his career. We can't judge that draft for another few years to see if Waiters was the right pick or not.
 
Look at the top usage rate players. Dion is in the top 6 while having the worst PER. He is having his opportunities he is just not effective in making them.
 
mAo_mAo said:
Look at the top usage rate players. Dion is in the top 6 while having the worst PER. He is having his opportunities he is just not effective in making them.
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And he leads the team in hockey assists, so he's making plays, and the right pass, but PER doesn't measure that. PER is flawed.
 
mAo_mAo said:
Look at the top usage rate players. Dion is in the top 6 while having the worst PER. He is having his opportunities he is just not effective in making them.
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And yet the team plays better with him on the court than off of it, which to me is all that really matters. That's not to say I wouldn't like to see Dion become more efficient (if for no other reason than to shut up people such as yourself who pay so much attention to a relatively meaningless stat), but I'm still okay with the way he plays because it appears to be pretty effective.
 
SteelSmack said:
And he leads the team in hockey assists, so he's making plays, and the right pass, but PER doesn't measure that. PER is flawed.
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Stats in general are flawed but you can spin it the other way and see that Kyrie is truly a superstar that even with having super high usage rate he is also top 5 in per.

But heck, hockey assists are truly reflective, right?
 
mAo_mAo said:
Stats in general are flawed but you can spin it the other way and see that Kyrie is truly a superstar that even with having super high usage rate he is also top 5 in per.

But heck, hockey assists are truly reflective, right?
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Hockey assists was just one example of stats that tell a broader story that PER completely ignores.

Does Delly + Dion have a better +/- than Delly + Kyrie? Yup. Probably just an outlier, right? Dion + CJ? same story. Dion + Jack? Same story again. The bottom line, Dion actually helps shut the other team down, something that PER ignores.
 
Jack Brickman said:
I think nba.com is tracking them now.
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Is this stat also flawed? Kyrie, the dude who never passes the ball, has a 'better points created by assist' than Dion; while the latter has a slightly better secondary assist stat by .2 assist. Or is this stat not reliable at all? Damn.
 
mAo_mAo said:
Is this stat also flawed? Kyrie, the dude who never passes the ball, has a 'better points created by assist' than Dion; while the latter has a slightly better secondary assist stat by .2 assist. Or is this stat not reliable at all? Damn.
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Now compare Dion to all of the SGs on the list that are ahead of him, since that's your argument. Kyrie is OBVIOUSLY better than Dion, though Dion does make up for some of it on the defensive side.
 
mAo_mAo said:
Is this stat also flawed? Kyrie, the dude who never passes the ball, has a 'better points created by assist' than Dion; while the latter has a slightly better secondary assist stat by .2 assist. Or is this stat not reliable at all? Damn.
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Kyrie handles the ball more and is our point guard. He's going to have more assists.

Plus, I've never been one to say Kyrie never passes the ball. He's a very good passer and has great vision. He just has an occasional tendency to ignore those skills and play hero ball, and that has led to a couple of losses this year.

To me, the bottom line is that the team plays better when Waiters is on the court. That's something tangible that hints at the kid's intangibles. He's doing something out there that isn't measured by PER. Whether it's his defense, his attitude, his willingness (most of the time) to keep the ball moving and run the offense...I don't know. What I do know is that every one of our other guards seems to play better with Waiters than with Kyrie.
 
cavsfan1985 said:
I think the thing that is missed is the usage rate of the players, Waiters is in the top 6 in usage rate for all SG, Beal who is also close has around the same PER. The only players with a similar usage rate with higher the 15 PERs (average) are Wade, Harden, Ellis. What that tells me, is if Waiters can improve his shooting % and turnovers. He should go up. If he was 26 or 27 then i would agree he is a bust, but he is in year 2 of his career. We can't judge that draft for another few years to see if Waiters was the right pick or not.
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We have one of the youngest teams. You are totally right. If this was Waiters' end point, I wouldn't be too happy. If you don't see the potential, root for CJ miles and his better PER.

Seriously, his defense is so improved he looks like one of the better defenders on the team. His ability to get to the rack is unquestioned, and his passing has been fantastic lately. His shot selection and just general play has been so much smarter and within himself this year, I really don't know what there is to complain about.

The complaining over guys who are consistently improving is doing my head in. TT and Dion are the bright spots on the team you fools!!!!
 
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