Darius Kinnard Garland

[jmilo]

This is the first basketball-related thread I've opened since the game.

I'm not sure I want to open another.

 

[Jscc]

DG would be pretty easy to unload. Call SA and they'll likely offer a first rounder.

It just doesn't seem like there's any way for him to take the next step here and nobody to show him how. He would blow up with Pop and Wemby and we would regret it just like what happened with Love.

 

[Pierre Pan]

I’ve been as critical of Darius as anybody recently. With that being said, there are a lot of issues at work here.

- at the time he was given his contract, it certainly seemed like a logical decision and his play was commensurate with said contract;

- clearly the manner with which he was being utilized prior to his contract extension was working well for him and the team ;

- while the opportunity to get Donovan Mitchell was incredibly enticing , I’m convinced that for what we gave up for him , a number of other players could have been obtained of somewhat equal value at a different point in time;

- the trade for Donovan MAY have been not only premature, but the pairing with DG may not be the ideal one due to physical limitations (size, in particular) and probably hasn’t helped DG’s game;

-not making the Mitchell trade and retaining Sexton, Lauri and picks and growing the team more internally and organically may have been a better alternative and DG may have been a bigger part going forward;

-a splashy trade perhaps a year or two later may have been the better option;

- there are still questions about Donovan himself. While the team played incredibly well with Donovan at the helm without both DG and Evan, we haven’t seen that version of Donovan in awhile predominantly due to knee issues (I think). Utah never went far under his leadership and pairing with Gobert. I still think he’s a special player but he and his teams seem to come up short in the playoffs

- for better or worse, because the team played so well during that “streak“, it legitimately led to questions as to whether the team could/would be better moving forward without DG who could bring back some player/players/picks. The ball movement was great, rotations were great, pace was great. Whether that would be sustainable or just a mirage, who knows plus additional injuries (to Wade, in particular) have hampered the team. (Part of me still can’t believe that Dean can be THAT important to the team still….and his injuries have become a chronic issue)

- I’m still not convinced that the team as presently composed couldn’t be better or the Mitchell/Garland pairing couldn’t work under a different coach

- injuries have been an issue for him this year, but his size and style of play are contributing factors and certainly have been with past injuries , too

- his play this season has been more than a small concern IMHO…..i feel his confidence has been destroyed (for whatever reason….injuries, Mitchell pairing, JBB, pressure, etc), his decision making and late game turnovers have been a concern, driving without having much ability to finish at the rim THIS SEASON has been a problem, leaving his feet repeatedly, and despite plenty of JBB urging slowing the pace of the team , over dribbling and getting the team into its offense (whatever that may be) far too late.

- moreover his size and general nonchalance defensively have been repeatedly exploited

-additionally, pressuring him and being physical with him has also exposed his faults and if a defender of size is on him, his style of outside shot is difficult to get off (very little lift)

-if the decision is to keep Donovan and he wants to stay, I feel a different backcourt partner would be better for the team.

- CPJ is a more than adequate backup PG (and maybe more) going forward

- still questions about JA and Evan;s ability to coexist but I’m confident that they can especially under a new regime

-as others have stated, regardless of DG’s “down year”, I feel that there will be enough GMs willing to overpay or adequately pay for him

 

[Cassity14]

@Pierre Pan great post, but I do have a question:

What players of equal value to Donovan Mitchell do you believe the Cavs could have acquired instead?

 

[inliner311]

I actually think the organization has a very good development plan. Even with sexton, his shot profile changed from long two's to 3 and rims.

Okoro had a season to forget last year, but you can see him pushing through growing pains.

Mobley has steadily increased his range and physicality.

Garland should've had the easiest path. Do more of what he's good at - shoot the 3, set up the play, and be DG the PG. But somehow, he went against all those things. Are you confident to disagree the coaching staff isn't asking him to do those exact same things?

I think they have a vision for players but I'm not sure they have found a proper way to execute whatever plans they do have for the players to properly develop. What I think is that a combination of vet players, assistant coaches, and private coaches/family of players have helped with a lot of the strides we have seen with our young players.

Where I think the disconnect is, is with JBB and how he hasn't really help players develop with in game reps. I think that is because of the free flowing offense that the organization or JBB wants to run. JBB doesn't pull guys aside like Larry Drew seem to do with Sexton. There isn't a structure to the offense and JBB rarely calls out plays so there really isn't a mechanism to have guys work on certain aspects of their game. JBB and staff might point out issues or ask players to be more aggressive but play calling and play design is how you show players what you ultimately want.

 

[JMoneyYourHoney]

- while the opportunity to get Donovan Mitchell was incredibly enticing , I’m convinced that for what we gave up for him , a number of other players could have been obtained of somewhat equal value at a different point in time;

- the trade for Donovan MAY have been not only premature, but the pairing with DG may not be the ideal one due to physical limitations (size, in particular) and probably hasn’t helped DG’s game;

-not making the Mitchell trade and retaining Sexton, Lauri and picks and growing the team more internally and organically may have been a better alternative and DG may have been a bigger part going forward;

-a splashy trade perhaps a year or two later may have been the better option;

This is 100% it. There are always going to be people who die on the Mitchell hill, but I guarantee you that at least 3/4ths of this board would undue that trade if they could. It was absolutely premature given the rest of the team's timeline and Mitchell himself, as good and as likable as he is, obviously isn't worth what we gave up. This is the 2nd postseason in a row where he's been ho-hum for us, after ample evidence with the Jazz that he isn't leading you far as the #1 guy.

Then again, if you're looking at it from the FO's perspective, they accomplished what they wanted to with it, which was to emulate Portland's "success" as a perennial playoff contender featuring a diminutive, dynamic backcourt. I've posted several links in the past that the Cavs were hell-bent on replicating this model, which they got. Congrats I guess?

What players of equal value to Donovan Mitchell do you believe the Cavs could have acquired instead?

It's not so much about equivalence, and more about a better fitting piece; SG is just not a spot you dump a premium load of assets on. We could have signed a serviceable 2 and used our ammo for a proper 3 once he became available, a la OG or Siakam from Toronto while having Markannen and all of our picks. Now we're going to have to hope Mitchell re-signs and try to trade Garland to find that player.

 

[Bob_The_Cat]

DG would be pretty easy to unload. Call SA and they'll likely offer a first rounder.

It just doesn't seem like there's any way for him to take the next step here and nobody to show him how. He would blow up with Pop and Wemby and we would regret it just like what happened with Love.

DG isn’t going to be as easy to unload as you think, and he’s not going to bring back what most people would’ve hoped.

 

[Pierre Pan]

This is 100% it. There are always going to be people who die on the Mitchell hill, but I guarantee you that at least 3/4ths of this board would undue that trade if they could. It was absolutely premature given the rest of the team's timeline and Mitchell himself, as good and as likable as he is, obviously isn't worth what we gave up. This is the 2nd postseason in a row where he's been ho-hum for us, after ample evidence with the Jazz that he isn't leading you far as the #1 guy.

Then again, if you're looking at it from the FO's perspective, they accomplished what they wanted to with it, which was to emulate Portland's "success" as a perennial playoff contender featuring a diminutive, dynamic backcourt. I've posted several links in the past that the Cavs were hell-bent on replicating this model, which they got. Congrats I guess?



It's not so much about equivalence, and more about a better fitting piece; SG is just not a spot you dump a premium load of assets on. We could have signed a serviceable 2 and used our ammo for a proper 3 once he became available, a la OG or Siakam from Toronto while having Markannen and all of our picks. Now we're going to have to hope Mitchell re-signs and try to trade Garland to find that player.

Indiana gave up 3 players and 3 first round picks for Siakem too and I thought that was a bit of stretch , but his fit has been seamless for the Pacers and probably would have been a better fit for us as well and with it coming a year later might have had better timing . It‘s funny , I always hated his pushing and style of play but he’s darn good

 

[Pierre Pan]

DG isn’t going to be as easy to unload as you think, and he’s not going to bring back what most people would’ve hoped.

I believe @Wham with the Right Hand asked posters to not make definitive statements like this. Adding an “in my opinion” would be helpful and as such you’re entitied to such. As is @Jscc entitled to his. In my opinion, one man’s trash is another man‘s treasure and I’ve seen universally stated “untradeable” contracts like Ben Simmons, Russell Westbrook, Bradley Beal, James Harden et al. moved time and time again and not only just moved but more bringing in more than a decent haul.

 

[buzzdog]

Garland's current value given his contract and recent performance has to be at rock bottom. We can only hope he wakes up from his stupor and redeems himself. He should be able to feast when Suggs is occupied with Mitchell.

 

[Bob_The_Cat]

I believe @Wham with the Right Hand asked posters to not make definitive statements like this. Adding an “in my opinion” would be helpful and as such you’re entitied to such. As is @Jscc entitled to his. In my opinion, one man’s trash is another man‘s treasure and I’ve seen universally stated “untradeable” contracts like Ben Simmons, Russell Westbrook, Bradley Beal, James Harden et al. moved time and time again and not only just moved but more bringing in more than a decent haul.

In my opinion, it’d be great if you posted what all of those teams received in return for those players.

 

[Pierre Pan]

Excellent article on DG this morning from the Fear The Sword crew:

The Cavs need something from Darius Garland — Fear The Sword

Garland disappeared once again in Game 3 as he totaled just 5 points in Cleveland’s most lopsided playoff loss.

apple.news

The Cleveland Cavaliers need something from Darius Garland

Garland disappeared once again in Game 3 as he totaled just 5 points in Cleveland’s most lopsided playoff loss.

Donovan Mitchell has said some version of the same thing every time he’s been asked about Cleveland Cavaliers guard Darius Garland’s struggles throughout the season.

“We made this thing [Mitchell coming to Cleveland] for us to be together,” Mitchell said in December. “That’s my brother. That’s my dog.”

The question continuously needs to be asked considering how they haven’t complimented each other the way they should. Game 3s humiliating loss was further proof of that as the Orlando Magic dared anyone besides Mitchell to beat them, and they couldn’t. This included Garland who finished with just 5 points on 2-10 shooting in 31 minutes.

Magic head coach Jahmal Mosley entered this series with too much respect for Garland. He put his best perimeter defender, Jalen Suggs, on him for the first two games and was hesitant to double Mitchell even though Gary Harris was having a tough time containing Mitchell. The most recent time Mosley was asked why Suggs wasn’t starting on Mitchell, his answer came back to why it was so important to stop Garland.

He was partially right. It’s important to stop Garland, but he didn’t have to go through all that effort to do so.

The idea of playing with Garland has intrigued Mitchell because he knows how having a second dynamic guard can alleviate pressure for him. Teams shouldn’t be able to easily double or put their best perimeter defender on him without risking what could happen to the other guard. However, this has proven true only in theory and not on the court.

Garland should’ve been the guy who broke Orlando’s defense every time they blitzed Mitchell, except he was always found standing 35 feet from the hoop in the least threatening position on the court.

While five sets of eyes watched Mitchell, none were on Garland. That can’t happen. Even if Mitchell could throw it out to Garland, he isn’t in a position to do anything if the ball did come to him.

Aside from getting help from Garland, Mitchell needs to do a better job at handling these traps. He’s still often too late in getting rid of the ball or tries to take it on when he doesn’t have to. The same issues that popped up against the New York Knicks are doing so again now.

Garland has helped in these situations in the past, at least more than he did in Game 3. He showed he could do so at the end of Game 2 even though the team as a whole struggled when Mitchell was trapped. Here, he goes down to the corner so that he’s in a position to get the second pass from the trap and draws a foul. That’s not something he can do from the Kia Center logo.

They’ve even shown they can do creative things like they did in one of their final regular season games two weeks ago. Garland slips an on-ball screen and gets a flare screen from Jarrett Allen that generates a clean look.

Garland has had a tough campaign. It’s clear that he isn’t the guy from the last two seasons and there’s little reason to believe he will be at any point this season. But the Cavs don’t need him to be that. They just need someone who can keep the defense honest and not allow the game to get out of hand when Mitchell sits like it did at end of the first quarter and the beginning of the second on Thursday night.

 

[Omar The Horse]

All eyes are on him today.

 

[RonG]

Garland needs to average 8 to 10 3's attempted a game. Law of averages Darius .... I don't care if you miss 5 in a row, thay next one is going in. That's your mentality. Go earn your check, go earn the respect.

 

[Rich]

Garbage. Awful. Physically weak and mentally weaker.

We get to the post-season and he becomes basically the worst starting guard on the court nightly.