Dion Waiters Traded

[SteelSmack]

I guess if you want to just make things up. Our longest winning streak last year was 6 games. Kyrie started all 6 games, dion didn't start any and missed one. In that stretch Kyrie had games of

23/12/3
28/6/5
23/4/5
22/7/7

That one game missed turned into 6, we were 3-3 in those 6 games including our win over the thunder.

The stretch he was talking about we won 5 out of 6. 4 out of 5 without Kyrie. Kyrie came back and we finished the season 3-4. The ball moved so well in that stretch Kyrie was out, and that's what every Dion apologist (like me!) remembers. Kyrie came back and played phenomenally, to his credit, but the ball didn't move as well, and we lost more than we won.

 

[KI4MVP]

The stretch he was talking about we won 5 out of 6. 4 out of 5 without Kyrie. Kyrie came back and we finished the season 3-4. The ball moved so well in that stretch Kyrie was out, and that's what every Dion apologist (like me!) remembers. Kyrie came back and played phenomenally, to his credit, but the ball didn't move as well, and we lost more than we won.

kyrie missed 8 games, we won 4. It's a bit misleading to cherry pick the wins and exclude the 3 losses that preceded them to conclude we were playing better without Kyrie, especially since we had a 2 game winning streak in the 2 games before Kyrie's injury.

If you want to say Dion played better the latter part of the season I'd agree with that. But I'm not going to agree that we're better with Dion than with Kyrie.

 

[DatDudeZ3]

He takes the tough shots because he wants to prove he belongs. Also, this isn't a team where if you pass the ball, it will come back. That is why we are under .500.

The ball movement is horrible right now and the team is a mess. Let's stop the hate on any of these guys and see how they fit in around the all-star break.

 

[Kouki]

That gif is so special because it has rarely happened this season...

 

[SteelSmack]

kyrie missed 8 games, we won 4. It's a bit misleading to cherry pick the wins and exclude the 3 losses that preceded them to conclude we were playing better without Kyrie, especially since we had a 2 game winning streak in the 2 games before Kyrie's injury.

If you want to say Dion played better the latter part of the season I'd agree with that. But I'm not going to agree that we're better with Dion than with Kyrie.

Meh. Look at the other 3 games. OKC, Miami and Houston. Solid playoff teams. 2 clear contenders. What were the results of those 3 games without Kyrie? Blowouts, right? Nope. Didn't lose any by more than 7. So, the wins might have not been there, but they played competitively with 3 pretty darn solid teams.

I'm not saying we're better with Dion than Kyrie, I'm saying don't say Dion can't move the ball when he clearly did down the stretch last season. He'll figure out what he needs to do in this system, just like he did last year, but it might take 2 or 3 more months before we see it. When he does figure it out, the team as a whole is going to be filthy.

 

[Jordan]

The stretch he was talking about we won 5 out of 6. 4 out of 5 without Kyrie. Kyrie came back and we finished the season 3-4. The ball moved so well in that stretch Kyrie was out, and that's what every Dion apologist (like me!) remembers. Kyrie came back and played phenomenally, to his credit, but the ball didn't move as well, and we lost more than we won.

I definitely understand where you are coming from but I have two problems:

1) Correlation without causation. I.E., the ball movement wasn't necessarily better because we didn't have Kyrie or because Dion was playing great ball. While both of these things are true I would posit that Mike Brown decided to stop running the Iso as much without Kyrie, hence the better ball movement. That is definitely partially on Kyrie but he has not killed our ball movement this year. Dion has.

2) I think there is a reason Dion is not playing. I do not know exactly what it is but Blatt and LBJ are smart dudes. I contend it is because a combination of his simply above-average NBA talent with his poor attitude.

Listen, Dion is a top-5 player in terms of talent on our team this year. But his attitude prevents him for achieving that potential.

 

[SteelSmack]

I definitely understand where you are coming from but I have two problems:

1) Correlation without causation. I.E., the ball movement wasn't necessarily better because we didn't have Kyrie or because Dion was playing great ball. While both of these things are true I would posit that Mike Brown decided to stop running the Iso as much without Kyrie, hence the better ball movement. That is definitely partially on Kyrie but he has not killed our ball movement this year. Dion has.

You misinterpreted my point, I don't care what the cause was, I care that Dion was part of it when it happened. He can be in an offense that moves the ball, I have evidence of that. Did the ball move more because we ran less ISO having our super-ISO player out? Almost certainly, but that's really irrelevant. What's relevant is that Dion thrived in an offense that moved the ball. People need to stop pretending like that's some impossible thing for him to do.

2) I think there is a reason Dion is not playing. I do not know exactly what it is but Blatt and LBJ are smart dudes. I contend it is because a combination of his simply above-average NBA talent with his poor attitude.

Listen, Dion is a top-5 player in terms of talent on our team this year. But his attitude prevents him for achieving that potential.

I'm not going to defend Dion for how he's played, he isn't making jump shots, he isn't moving the ball, he's sulking way too much when he does something wrong. But this will pass, Dion will start shooting 40%+ on jumpers, he'll start shooting 35%+ on 3s. He's already finishing better inside (54% eFG% on close shots this season, 47% last year and 50% his rookie year) and that was one of his biggest areas of concern.

People are just impatient, and that's the only point I'm trying to make. Give the kid some time. We're not catering the offense to him, he has to adjust. It's going to take time.

 

[KI4MVP]

if you read back in the thread you'll see I'm one of the people not ready to give up on Dion just yet.

However, I am quite concerned at how much he has regressed from the latter part of last year and at how unbelievably selfish and childish he looked last game with all of the pouting during a 30 point win.

The issues this year are the exact same ones we had to correct last year and pretty much the same issues he faced as a freshman in college.

 

[David.]

Three years. Impatience.

 

[SteelSmack]

Three years. Impatience.

At the end of his first year he had a good run. New coach in 2nd year. At the end of his 2nd year he had a good run. New coach in 3rd year. And now people are flipping out because he's playing poorly (and sulking because of it). So yes, impatience.

 

[KI4MVP]

I don't think anyone cares too much that his efficiency regressed. People care that his attitude has regressed and he doesn't act like he's part of the team.

When people care that the same attitude issues happen year after year under coach after coach, impatience isn't the correct work.

 

[David.]

isn't the correct work.

irony.. i laughed

 

[Bandwagoner305]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=pzsvwos

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=q8d73zr

What do y'all think?

 

[Bandwagoner305]

I'll start off by stating the obvious that Kyrie has more trade value than Dion. The Cavs can get the pieces they need to build a championship team around LeBron and Love by trading him, but i highly doubt it will happen. I don't know how many times it's been stated, but there are simply too many offensive-minded/ball dominant players on the roster and there's just one ball to play with.

LeBron and Love had great impact when they were being used the right way with their previous respective teams and the Cavs can still bring the best out of them, but they'll have to make room for them to get involved more.

 

[AZCavs]

Brendan Haywood will not be moved in any trade this season.